Still confused about OC in cars...

Its legal if you are doing it for work, I've done it for both Loomis and Wackenhut at the Point Beach Nuclear Plant.

WisconsinPI said:

I wrote the state about private security in a patrol car (armed) and getting in the car with gun in holster to patrol, they told me it's a no go, I'm confused because I thought the exceptions were you can conceal (oc'ing in car is concealed) in your own house and on your property and also with consent of your employer at place of business. So it's my understanding that if i were on my employers private property i could conceal (getting into patrol car) but they say it's not permitted. hmmmmm

so then what about armored car drivers that carry in holster while driving on PUBLIC streets?

Anyone with the correct answer? please feel free to pm me as well as i may forget to check this post again and would really like to know the law

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Private detectives and security can transport loaded and unencased firearms in vehicles, but they cannot carry concealed weapons unless they also happen to be sworn peace officers.

(4) EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
any of the following who, in the line of duty, place, possess, transport,
load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
3. A member of the national guard.
4. A private security person who meets all of the following
requirements:
a. He or she holds either a private detective license issued
under s. 440.26 (2) (a) 2. or a private security permit issued under
s. 440.26 (5).
b. He or she holds a certificate of proficiency to carry a firearm
issued by the department of regulation and licensing.
c. He or she is performing his or her assigned duties or responsibilities.
d. He or she is wearing a uniform that clearly identifies him
or her as a private security person.
e. His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the
department of regulation and licensing

ayce2 said:

With al this back and forth I'm sitting thinking..What is the definition of "encased"? Is there a concise answer? If I leave my office (private property) unholster,unload and place my 45 in my brief case is it encased? It is completely enclosed, but not in a special "gun" case. Gee this gets frustrating.

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(b) “Encased” means enclosed in a case that is expressly made
for the purpose of containing a firearm and that is completely
zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part
of the firearm exposed

And Remember We Can NEVER Follow Both "Concealed" and "Transport" Laws....

Remember the way the law is written for a concealed weapon every time the firearm is placed in ANY type of container you just broke the law. EVERY TIME. So, when you put the gun in the case IAW the transport law you just broke the law. When you buy a firearm and it is placed in a box, bag, etc. you just broke the law. When you put the firearm in your gun safe you just broke the law. And on and on and on.

And what if you are riding a bicycle or walking or on any type of vehicle that is so small it is impossible to place the firearm "out of reach"? You just broke the law for concealed carry.

I transport my handgun IAW the transport law, period: "Unloaded and encased". It states nothing about being "Out of reach". We have several motorcycle riders that transport their gun either in a backpack, saddlebag or strapped to the seat behind them. No problems with law enforcement (yet). We also have a few who transport their firearm in a case while riding their bicycle. No problems (yet). This topic will be debated and debated until someone either gets arrested and becomes the test case or the concealed carry law is deleted or amended to include lawful transport.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

But there is no such thing in WI law as brandishing. Probably would get a DC charge.

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While there is no State Statute which addresses "brandishing" there are municipalities which prohibit displaying in a "threatening" manner which is for all practical purposes, brandishing and clearly a disorderly conduct so either charge would be valid. A holstered handgun is neither threatening nor disorderly using a reasonable person standard.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

MY son had a good question today. Not that I want to do this but could I not have a firearm in my hand outside the window of the car as long as the firearm isn't 'in or on' the car?

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Since you are in the car, the firearm is "in or on" the vehicle while it is in your possession. This is why you may not hunt from essentially anything with wheels.

Thank you Shotgun

Shotgun said:

(b) “Encased” means enclosed in a case that is expressly made
for the purpose of containing a firearm and that is completely
zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part
of the firearm exposed

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" EXPRESSLY MADE" Thank you that answered the question. Can not put the gun in a briefcase made for papers, could put it in a concealment case made for both... guess I get to go shopping. But then again I could fit a smallgun case inside the briefcase and save money.. but then it does not cost to shop. Christmas is coming.

This is what I meant by sock, cinch and ties.

rcawdor57 said:

When you buy a firearm and it is placed in a box, bag, etc. you just broke the law. When you put the firearm in your gun safe you just broke the law.

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Believe that if you wish, but then why aren't police simply sitting outside gun shops and arresting every person who exits with a gun box or gun case under their arm?

Hamdan decision made it clear that sometimes people have to conceal their weapons and it's legal. Listen to the oral arguments in Cole and Hamdan and they discuss silly things like whether a gun in a gun safe is a concealed weapon. Clearly it is not. Shirley Abrahamson, the most liberal member of the court and the only dissenting voice in Hamdan even saw the absurdity of that line of reasoning.

Shotgun said:

Believe that if you wish, but then why aren't police simply sitting outside gun shops and arresting every person who exits with a gun box or gun case under their arm?

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Judicial discretion, perhaps abusing it.

I Agree...

Shotgun said:

Believe that if you wish, but then why aren't police simply sitting outside gun shops and arresting every person who exits with a gun box or gun case under their arm?

Hamdan decision made it clear that sometimes people have to conceal their weapons and it's legal. Listen to the oral arguments in Cole and Hamdan and they discuss silly things like whether a gun in a gun safe is a concealed weapon. Clearly it is not. Shirley Abrahamson, the most liberal member of the court and the only dissenting voice in Hamdan even saw the absurdity of that line of reasoning.

Click to expand...

I agree. It is absurd. But, if the police wanted to do so they could indeed arrest every person who "concealed" the firearm IAW the insane laws of Wisconsin. Also, do you remember the case here in Wisconsin where the school girl was charged with a concealed weapons violation for an object in her coat pocket locked in her school locker? I don't remember what the object was but that case went all the way to the WSC. So let's not say it cannot happen because it has.

From the Wisconsin State Patrol website, Good enough for me.


What is the legal method of carrying a weapon in my vehicle in Wisconsin?

With the weapon cased and unloaded. Applies to firearms and bow hunting equipment.

rcawdor57 said:

I agree. It is absurd. But, if the police wanted to do so they could indeed arrest every person who "concealed" the firearm IAW the insane laws of Wisconsin. Also, do you remember the case here in Wisconsin where the school girl was charged with a concealed weapons violation for an object in her coat pocket locked in her school locker? I don't remember what the object was but that case went all the way to the WSC. So let's not say it cannot happen because it has.

Click to expand...

Yes I remember that case, it involved a padlock attached to a shoestring as the "weapon." It did not go to the Wisconsin Supreme Court. As a matter of fact, her conviction for CCW was overturned in the Court of Appeals.

You Can Comply With Both Laws

It isn't easy or efficient but you can:

1. Never carry a firearm. However, if this were the only solution it would run afoul of Hamdan and the WSC would carve out some sort of exception.

2. Place your encased, unloaded firearm in your trunk. You have met the requirements of 167.31 and since the firearm is out of reach, you do not violate 941.23. Just don't completely encase the firearm until you get to the vehicle.

Now I suppose for a few seconds after you close the case, somebody could argue that you are carrying concealed. However if you are on your own property, Hamdan would provide protection. Even if you were elsewhere, I would go so far to say that you have met the Hamdan 3-pronged test.

You could also OC in the vehicle (making sure the firearm is visible) to avoid 941.23. You could be nailed on 167.31 but I'm guessing that any penalty is no more severe that that for a 941.23 violation. Pick your poison.

The out of reach provision is for concealed carry. If you have a firearm encased per 167.31 and inside the passenger compartment you probably would be charged with violating 941.23, no matter where you place it. However I would make the argument that if you are using a case designed for a firearm then the firearm really isn't "hidden" solely by being encased. And obviously a LEO recognized it as a firearm.

and there is #3 - vote for people who will bring sanity to Wisconsin's gun laws.

rcawdor57 said:

Remember the way the law is written for a concealed weapon every time the firearm is placed in ANY type of container you just broke the law. EVERY TIME. So, when you put the gun in the case IAW the transport law you just broke the law. When you buy a firearm and it is placed in a box, bag, etc. you just broke the law. When you put the firearm in your gun safe you just broke the law. And on and on and on.

And what if you are riding a bicycle or walking or on any type of vehicle that is so small it is impossible to place the firearm "out of reach"? You just broke the law for concealed carry.

I transport my handgun IAW the transport law, period: "Unloaded and encased". It states nothing about being "Out of reach". We have several motorcycle riders that transport their gun either in a backpack, saddlebag or strapped to the seat behind them. No problems with law enforcement (yet). We also have a few who transport their firearm in a case while riding their bicycle. No problems (yet). This topic will be debated and debated until someone either gets arrested and becomes the test case or the concealed carry law is deleted or amended to include lawful transport.

Click to expand...

comp45acp said:

From the Wisconsin State Patrol website, Good enough for me.


What is the legal method of carrying a weapon in my vehicle in Wisconsin?

With the weapon cased and unloaded. Applies to firearms and bow hunting equipment.

Click to expand...

Just don't eat in a Chinese restaurant while carrying, for some reason they don't like that.

What about this?

There are a couple of problems not mentioned here yet. I drive an SUV. No trunk, anything always accessible to the passengers no matter how it is encased or "hidden." I keep an encased 12 gauge behind the 2nd row seat and on the floor underneath the folded up 3rd row seat, but that's the best I can do as far as making it inaccessible. As far as something designed for one purpose, but useable for self-defense, I keep one of these under my driver's seat along with the orange cone that fits over the end.

Fast Ed

Again, there is no case law or statute that requires your firearms to be out of reach.

Again, there is no exception for vehicle transportation in § 941.23, a statute prohibiting concealment, including in vehicles, with elements applying to vehicles and case law on vehicles.

§ 941.23 Carrying concealed weapon.
Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. ...
History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.
[ ... ]
A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with a gun locked in a glove compartment.
State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565 (1986).

To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section.
State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

Doug, you are not qualified, as I am not either, to clarify whether out of reach is required or not.

Doug's post is valid BUT, all the cases cited are decisions made prior to the 1998 constitutional amendment. There haven't been any cases since the amendment so there is no direct correct answer.

I will comply with 167.31 in as much as the firearm is unloaded, in case specifically made for a firearm, and the case is completely closed. Beyond that, it will take a legal challenge to get clarification from the court as to what effect, if any, the 1998 amendment had.

Still confused? Welcome to the the quagmire we know to be Wisconsin's gun laws.