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Thread: Question regarding ID

  1. #1
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Question regarding ID

    Since the open carry movement has been getting a lot of media attention lately regarding illegal detentions and arrests, I thought I would ask a question. Does ANYONE have any federal or state law that shows when we are required to identify ourselves? This is all I found, and it seems it is only relevant to traffic stops. Even if I refuse to ID myself upon being detained, I cannot be arrested for refusing ID. I have read online that, unless I am ARRESTED, I do not have to give my identification. I really wish I had some solid LAWS in front of me and not hearsay. Some say I have to provide name and address when detained, some say I don't. Any laws? Thanks.



    RCW 46.61.021
    Duty to obey law enforcement officer — Authority of officer.
    (1) Any person requested or signaled to stop by a law enforcement officer for a traffic infraction has a duty to stop.

    (2) Whenever any person is stopped for a traffic infraction, the officer may detain that person for a reasonable period of time necessary to identify the person, check for outstanding warrants, check the status of the person's license, insurance identification card, and the vehicle's registration, and complete and issue a notice of traffic infraction.

    (3) Any person requested to identify himself or herself to a law enforcement officer pursuant to an investigation of a traffic infraction has a duty to identify himself or herself and give his or her current address.

    “. . . A DETAINEES REFUSAL TO DISCLOSE HIS NAME ADDRESS, AND OTHER
    INFORMATION CANNOT BE THE BASIS OF AN ARREST.” State v. White, 97 Wn.2d
    92, at 103, 640 P.2d 1061 (1982).


    Joe~

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    Please carefully differentiate between your oral identification and seizure of your papers (as in a cop even touching one).

    I believe differentiation between detention (a la 'Terry') and arrest is important.

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    Yeah, these all refer to traffic stops where a person is required to be licensed to operate a motor vehicle.

    Too many law enforcement officers believe one is required identify one's self merely at their request, forgetting they must be detained first.

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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
    Does this mean that will display to an officer at command and anyone else when required by law or that you only have to show it to ANYONE, including an LEO, when it is required by law? Also, is there anywhere that states when the law requires that you show this kind of identification? I'd assume only when carrying of such is actually required like when concealing or having it loaded in a motor vehicle.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    When I open carry, I carry without my CPL and without my driver's license.

    Once when I was contacted by Kent police, they couldn't believe that I wasn't carrying ID or CPL. I said to them, "I'm not operating my vehicle, so I don't need to have my driver's license on me, and I'm not concealing my weapon so I don't need to carry my CPL on me.". They didn't know what to say or how to deal with that.
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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    When I open carry, I carry without my CPL and without my driver's license.

    Once when I was contacted by Kent police, they couldn't believe that I wasn't carrying ID or CPL. I said to them, "I'm not operating my vehicle, so I don't need to have my driver's license on me, and I'm not concealing my weapon so I don't need to carry my CPL on me.". They didn't know what to say or how to deal with that.
    That's a good way to do it, but I drive everywhere, so the closest I could do is leave my ID in the car. I'd also have no way of purchasing items at stores and such because I only use plastic, no cash on me ever. I expect cashiers to ID me and I even have it written on my cards to See ID since I don't want anyone to be able to use my cards other than me.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    NavyLT,

    RCW 7.80.060 is exactly what I was looking for. Something that states when I am required to identify myself.

    However, it says,

    A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.

    A person may be detained for not providing an ID card upon request. Well it says "reasonably identify himself." But prior to that, it mentions the ID.

    Again,

    “. . . A DETAINEES REFUSAL TO DISCLOSE HIS NAME ADDRESS, AND OTHER
    INFORMATION CANNOT BE THE BASIS OF AN ARREST.” State v. White, 97 Wn.2d
    92, at 103, 640 P.2d 1061 (1982).

    It seems like it is only a basis of detention. Furthermore, it only seems that I can be detained IF I am to receive a civil infraction. If I receive a civil infraction, then I am required to give my name, address, and date of birth.

    So if an officer "detains" me because he believes I am "about to commit" a crime (say because I have a gun....), without issuing a citation, am I required to hand over my info?

    Joe~

  8. #8
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    When I open carry, I carry without my CPL and without my driver's license.

    Once when I was contacted by Kent police, they couldn't believe that I wasn't carrying ID or CPL. I said to them, "I'm not operating my vehicle, so I don't need to have my driver's license on me, and I'm not concealing my weapon so I don't need to carry my CPL on me.". They didn't know what to say or how to deal with that.
    I try doing this most of the time, unfortunately I have the words "SEE ID" on the back on my debit card. So when I know I am going to purchase something, I keep my ID on me.

    Joe~

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    P.S.

    I found Vancouver's Municipal Code:

    Section 8.99.010 Duty to obey law enforcement officer - Authority of officer.

    (1) Any person requested or signaled to stop by a law enforcement officer for a civil infraction has a duty to stop.

    (2) Whenever any person is stopped for a civil infraction, the officer may detain that person for a reasonable period of time necessary to identify the person, check for outstanding warrants, and complete and issue a notice of civil infraction.

    (3) Any person requested to identify himself or herself to a law enforcement officer pursuant to an investigation of a civil infraction has a duty to identify himself or herself, give his or her current address, and sign an acknowledgment of receipt of the notice of civil infraction.

    So it seems like here it is the same case, I have to be cited for an infraction. Not "suspected," but actually cited.

    Joe~

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    I use a debit card that I just swipe. I never get asked to show ID. But if I'm carrying ID I still wouldn't show it to police if they are unlawfully detaining me. They're going to have to cuff me up and take it from my pocket. Then I'll just sue for 4th amendment violations.
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    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

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  11. #11
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I'd also have no way of purchasing items at stores and such because I only use plastic, no cash on me ever. I expect cashiers to ID me and I even have it written on my cards to See ID since I don't want anyone to be able to use my cards other than me.
    Read this:

    http://<br /> http://www.privacyrigh...Alert-FS15.htm

    "Merchants may ask a customer for identification, but in most situations, a merchant may not condition acceptance of a Visa or MasterCard credit card upon the customer presenting identification. In other words, you can refuse to provide identification, and the merchant still must accept your credit card. Many merchants are unaware of this rule."

    Here is a quote from MasterCard's Merchant Rules Manual:

    "9.11.2 Cardholder Identification
    A merchant must not refuse to complete a MasterCard card transaction solely
    because a cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment
    of a card at the POI [point of interaction] refuses to provide additional identification information, except as specifically permitted or required by the Standards. A merchant may require additional identification from the cardholder if the information is required to complete the transaction, such as for shipping purposes. A merchant in a country or region that supports use of the MasterCard Address Verification Service (AVS) may require the cardholder’s ZIP or postal code to complete a cardholder-activated terminal (CAT) transaction, or the cardholder’s address and ZIP or postal code to complete a mail order, phone order, or e-commerce transaction.
    (http://www.mastercard.com/us/wce/PDF/MERC-Entire_Manual.pdf)"


    Merchants can actually be fined by the Credit Card Company if the Consumer complains. I was working part time to kill some retirement spare time and my Employer sent around one of those "Read and Sign" memos on this. The fines can really add up.

    Soooo, If you really don't want to carry ID, don't do it only because you think you need it for Credit Card Transactions. You don't unless you fall into the limited exceptions shown at the end of the "rule".

    As for the "See ID" that everyone writes on the back of the card, why? How many times have you actually been asked. I keep physical control of my card at all times and even if stolen or lost, I am not responsible for the fraudulent charges.
    Last edited by amlevin; 10-01-2010 at 02:40 PM.
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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Good point amlevin. Working retail all my life, I have constantly declined a purchase because of no ID. I will have to keep this in mind now...

    Joe~

    p.s. All cards even say "not valid unless signed" on back. So even when I put "see id" then teeecchnically, my card is not valid.
    Last edited by joejoejoe; 10-01-2010 at 03:12 PM. Reason: for p.s.

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    When I open carry, I carry without my CPL and without my driver's license.

    Once when I was contacted by Kent police, they couldn't believe that I wasn't carrying ID or CPL. I said to them, "I'm not operating my vehicle, so I don't need to have my driver's license on me, and I'm not concealing my weapon so I don't need to carry my CPL on me.". They didn't know what to say or how to deal with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    That's a good way to do it, but I drive everywhere, so the closest I could do is leave my ID in the car. I'd also have no way of purchasing items at stores and such because I only use plastic, no cash on me ever. I expect cashiers to ID me and I even have it written on my cards to See ID since I don't want anyone to be able to use my cards other than me.
    For those times when for whatever reason one wishes to go sans ID, might I suggest having a refillable pre-paid Visa or MasterCard ("Gift Card") for those times one needs to make a purchase?

    You can pick 'em up, for example, at Tacoma Mall, and the cards only have the numbers on them, NO NAME, but are usable anywhere a Visa or MasterCard are, and require no ID.

    One can keep as much "emergency money" in them as one wishes, and as it is used it can be replenished.
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

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    Others may disagree with me on this one, but I'd much rather carry my ID on me at all times, when out in public. If, God Forbid, anything were to happen to me that rendered me unconscious, I'd like emergency responders to know who I am. On another note, if I were ever put in a situation where I needed to use deadly force, I'd much rather have my ID on me so the police can take my information.

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    I expect cashiers to ID me
    Me? I'm a real extremist: I consider it an affront if a cashier asks me for ID when I present a valid credit card with a signature on the back of it. The counter signature on the sales draft matching the signature on the back of the card is the ID, according to merchant credit card agreements.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    For those times when for whatever reason one wishes to go sans ID, might I suggest having a refillable pre-paid Visa or MasterCard ("Gift Card") for those times one needs to make a purchase?

    You can pick 'em up, for example, at Tacoma Mall, and the cards only have the numbers on them, NO NAME, but are usable anywhere a Visa or MasterCard are, and require no ID.

    One can keep as much "emergency money" in them as one wishes, and as it is used it can be replenished.
    Not a bad idea -----but------ You have even less security with one of these than with one "In your Name". If YOUR card is used fraudulently you can notify the issuer in the prescribed time period and have your liability limited $0 - $50 max, depending on the Company. If you loose a "prepaid", you've lost whatever amount is left on it and ANYONE can use it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Me? I'm a real extremist: I consider it an affront if a cashier asks me for ID when I present a valid credit card with a signature on the back of it. The counter signature on the sales draft matching the signature on the back of the card is the ID, according to merchant credit card agreements.
    Just advise the cashier that you'd like to speak with their supervisor. Advise the supervisor that you will be registering a complaint with the Credit Card Co and they could be fined if they insist on seeing your ID.

    The only valid reasons are if the card is unsigned or you have written "See ID" or the more clever "C. I. D." in the signature space. The fine is progressive, with each "incident" it goes up. If the merchant is a chronic abuser they can see fines in the neighborhood of $15,000 per incident. Now that can just mess up a managers "incentive bonus" real bad.

    Don't hesitate to call them on it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Not a bad idea -----but------ You have even less security with one of these than with one "In your Name". If YOUR card is used fraudulently you can notify the issuer in the prescribed time period and have your liability limited $0 - $50 max, depending on the Company. If you loose a "prepaid", you've lost whatever amount is left on it and ANYONE can use it.
    This is the "little purchase, no ID, emergency card" not something with your entire bank account in it.

    I limit mine to $50... I would lose no more if it was lost than I would if it were a "regular" card, and it's enough to get me by until I can get back to my "real" cards.

    It's very special purpose.

    If for some reason I need to have more in it suddenly, I can transfer money into it immediately with my smartphone, and it STILL doesn't have my name printed on it...
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Well now that the ID for shopping has officially deterred my OP, I would like to restate my last question.

    It seems like it is only a basis of detention. Furthermore, it only seems that I can be detained IF I am to receive a civil infraction. If I receive a civil infraction, then I am required to give my name, address, and date of birth.

    So if an officer "detains" me because he believes I am "about to commit" a crime (say because I have a gun....), without issuing a citation, am I required to hand over my info?

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    This is the "little purchase, no ID, emergency card" not something with your entire bank account in it.

    I limit mine to $50... I would lose no more if it was lost than I would if it were a "regular" card, and it's enough to get me by until I can get back to my "real" cards.

    It's very special purpose.

    If for some reason I need to have more in it suddenly, I can transfer money into it immediately with my smartphone, and it STILL doesn't have my name printed on it...

    With the small limit I concur.

    One area that few have mentioned is the use of these "prepaid" cards for online purchases. With the occasional intrusion into companies records by hackers yielding CC Numbers, Names, and Addresses, making an online purchase with a card that will have no value after it is used makes a lot of sense although the limits of liability still apply when using a conventional card.


    I've had Credit cards since the 60's and only three times has the number been compromised. A gas Station in Los Angeles charged me twice for the same purchase, A Cab Driver in Colorado did likewise, and someone hacked a website's records. In the first case I merely made a phone call and the charges were reversed. In the latter, I was unaware and the Card Company sent me a notice that they were issuing new cards and numbers because of the breach.

    I tend to guard my mail and Driver's license more carefully than my credit cards. Anything coming to me goes into a locked mailbox and when I'm done reading it it get's shredded. My DL doesn't leave my hands to anyone but a LEO and it's been years since that's happened.

    On the Credit Cards, anyone go in for a drink during happy hour? Notice how they keep your card all the time you're drinking? Ever wonder what "security" they are providing for it?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    On the Credit Cards, anyone go in for a drink during happy hour? Notice how they keep your card all the time you're drinking? Ever wonder what "security" they are providing for it?
    I don't wonder any more, I've seen it. They go into a pile near the register.

    Edited to add: My credit card and debit card both have my photo on them. BofA offers this service. Problem (and discussion of Visa/MC contracts) averted.
    Last edited by maclean; 10-01-2010 at 06:05 PM.

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    I should have been more specific. Am I required to state my name and address if I am NOT being issued a citation?

    Joe~

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Others may disagree with me on this one, but I'd much rather carry my ID on me at all times, when out in public. If, God Forbid, anything were to happen to me that rendered me unconscious, I'd like emergency responders to know who I am. On another note, if I were ever put in a situation where I needed to use deadly force, I'd much rather have my ID on me so the police can take my information.
    I wear a dogtag on a necklace around my neck with emergency numbers on it. At the top it says "Emergency" then a list of phone numbers in order of priority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    P.S.

    I found Vancouver's Municipal Code:

    Section 8.99.010 Duty to obey law enforcement officer - Authority of officer.

    (1) Any person requested or signaled to stop by a law enforcement officer for a civil infraction has a duty to stop.

    (2) Whenever any person is stopped for a civil infraction, the officer may detain that person for a reasonable period of time necessary to identify the person, check for outstanding warrants, and complete and issue a notice of civil infraction.

    (3) Any person requested to identify himself or herself to a law enforcement officer pursuant to an investigation of a civil infraction has a duty to identify himself or herself, give his or her current address, and sign an acknowledgment of receipt of the notice of civil infraction.

    So it seems like here it is the same case, I have to be cited for an infraction. Not "suspected," but actually cited.

    Joe~
    What you need to remember is that all those codes have the qualifier that it needs to be pursuant to investigation of a civil infraction or for issuance of a citation for a civil infraction. So unless the LEO has RAS he can't just ask you for your ID because he "doesn't know who you are". That doesn't float.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Son_of_Perdition's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deanf
    Me? I'm a real extremist: I consider it an affront if a cashier asks me for ID when I present a valid credit card with a signature on the back of it. The counter signature on the sales draft matching the signature on the back of the card is the ID, according to merchant credit card agreements.Just advise the cashier that you'd like to speak with their supervisor. Advise the supervisor that you will be registering a complaint with the Credit Card Co and they could be fined if they insist on seeing your ID.

    The only valid reasons are if the card is unsigned or you have written "See ID" or the more clever "C. I. D." in the signature space. The fine is progressive, with each "incident" it goes up. If the merchant is a chronic abuser they can see fines in the neighborhood of $15,000 per incident. Now that can just mess up a managers "incentive bonus" real bad.

    Don't hesitate to call them on it.


    Nice, I did not know that. I will use that.

    My ID stays in the car when I OC. I can't offer somthing I do not have

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