OC at a low income apartment complex.

I was OC ing at my dads apartment complex he had surgery the other day so i went into the office and paid his rent. Upon leaving i was told i couldnt Carry my firearm out in the open because it was federal property i said i never seen that since the streets are property of the city of pontiac. She said you cant visit here with a gun you cant have it in your car because its federal property no signs either she said its federal property and i say you cant carry it here and i dont have to have signs anywhere and she would have me arrested. She called my dad yelled at him and said i would have to prove i can carry there by providing proof.

Good job standing up for yourself. If your father didn't sign a statement on his lease about firearms, it is his abode and may treat it as such when it comes to firearms. This includes welcoming people who carry

A suggestion for the future. Try to include some punctuation in your post, it makes it easier to read and understand.

will do i'll have my wife do it 4 hrs of sleep since monday isn't helping me any so it's bed time now ty.

I asked over on MGO in the Legal Beagle Section.. will post the answer if and when I get it.

Thanks auto. IMO Army has a valid point with it being on public streets.

at first glance it appears like it would be legal to possess firearms at a low income housing project....reading more cite's now....

http://www.guncite.com/journals/dowpubh.html#fnb87

In addition, it is also well-settled law that the government may not condition entitlement to a public benefit, whether gratuitous or not, upon the waiver of constitutional rights that the government could not abridge by direct action.[88] Thus, the government is not free to place unconstitutional prerequisites upon the securing of public housing. Eligibility for low income housing provided by a housing authority plainly is a public benefit or privilege. The concept that constitutional rights turn upon whether a governmental benefit is characterized as a right or privilege has been rejected by the Supreme Court

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lapeer20m said:

http://www.caesarrodney.org/pdfs/NHAfollowPDF.pdf

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And it's this action in the above document that prompts me to think you could carry there. After Heller the Feds really can't ban guns in public housing, even thought they may technically own the property. Otherwise I smell another lawsuit.

One thing to check is actual ownership. Most income based housing is owned by the state or a management company. They then receive funding assistance from the federal government by following certain guidelines in regards to tenants income levels.

Most low income apartments are owned by a public or private company who gets tax deals for being section 8 or low income. Thus they are almost never Federal Property. The Fed did away with them holding the properties years ago because it was costing them a ton of money. Now The streets may be private within the complex in many cases. But after that point I am not sure how this would play out. Call the tax assessors office and find out who owns it. Many are owned by companies like Lafayette management in the Metro area, Lexington management ect.

army74 said:

I was OC ing at my dads apartment complex he had surgery the other day so i went into the office and paid his rent. Upon leaving i was told i couldnt Carry my firearm out in the open because it was federal property i said i never seen that since the streets are property of the city of pontiac. She said you cant visit here with a gun you cant have it in your car because its federal property no signs either she said its federal property and i say you cant carry it here and i dont have to have signs anywhere and she would have me arrested. She called my dad yelled at him and said i would have to prove i can carry there by providing proof.

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IMO if they can give you a speeding ticket, then you can carry, its a public street.

Bailenforcer said:

Call the tax assessors office and find out who owns it. Many are owned by companies like Lafayette management in the Metro area, Lexington management ect.

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You can also look it up here. Many municipalities are registered through this site. Enter an address and it will tell you who the property is registered to for tax purposes.

https://is.bsasoftware.com/bsa.is/SelectUnit.aspx?unit=327

My townhouse is conected to 7 others,which are privately owned.The owner accepts Sec 8,I believe he gets tax breaks for accepting Sec 8.

Actually that's untrue.

Can you get a speeding ticket in a Wal-Mart parking lot? yes. Why? Wal-Mart and many large malls sign agreements to allow the Police to patrol their properties. The reason I know this is when I had my detective agency, security company we used to have to know these things for liability reasons. The same rule applies to some apartment complexes. Their parking areas and streets are private but the police are invited to patrol and execute traffic laws. This is why when you get a ticket in a parking lot for speeding you will loose in court if you fight it on the private property grounds. Most judges won't tell you why unless you can use procedural actions to discover this. Some facilities we had control over the Police were not allowed in and when they showed up we had to grant them permission to run the property to help us find someone who may or may not have gained property access illegally. Those properties we also patrolled with long guns due to the sensitive nature of that properties business.

But I am afraid you can and will get a speeding ticket on many so called private streets due to agreements in place.

Remember a civil infraction is not a criminal act, it is a violation of a contract. When you get a drivers license you signed a contract to obey the traffic rules.

stainless1911 said:

IMO if they can give you a speeding ticket, then you can carry, its a public street.

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I say BS to this, because "government provided living quarters" don't seem to be covered, unless the proprietor and or staff are actual "employees" of the Federal Government (see definition g(1), below). Even if they could successfully make the argument that it is a "Federal Facility", carrying there would not, IMHO, be illegal because there is no posting and/or you are carrying for a lawful purpose (self-defense) (see below)


§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.


(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.[/B]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

Good cite, good point.

1+

I never let them stop me from carry. I have been asked to stop carrying and it came down to me saying no I will not and I walked away. Not once has anyone went further than a verbal protest. if it does go further I may file a law suit for malicious harassment, and all the emotional stress it caused me.

DrTodd said:

I say BS to this, because "government provided living quarters" don't seem to be covered, unless the proprietor and or staff are actual "employees" of the Federal Government (see definition g(1), below). Even if they could successfully make the argument that it is a "Federal Facility", carrying there would not, IMHO, be illegal because there is no posting and/or you are carrying for a lawful purpose (self-defense) (see below)


§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.


(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.[/B]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

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