Fun, Fun. New face book site on gun control

tai4de2 said:

Is it worth it to have a specific, similar page with our point of view?

I was thinking about one called "Washington State for Gun Common Sense" to sorta turn typical anti wording against them, and promote it as a place where we refute the emotional, fear-driven and irrational arguments put forth by the antis. We could promote successful self-defense incidents etc on there and specifically call out that we do NOT fear opposing viewpoints because we are on the righteous path if logic and reason.

I created a page in my personal facebook account already and could build it into what's described above if people think it's worth it. I know there are already lots of pages that could potentially be serving a similar purpose (nra, wac, ocdo?, etc) but this one would be specific to WA. Is there already something like what I described above? Worth doing? I don't want to splinter us by creating a new page if a similar thing already exists somewhere else.

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There is a page for us...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Washington/Washington-Open-Carry-dot-Org/251484204266?ref=ts

Oh, that's great! I don't think we need another then.

banned from posting.

I don't bother posting on idiot places like that. They have their view and will usually delete all posts that contradict them. They (like many far left liberals) want the ability to cram their twisted point of view down the throats of everyone else while never having to hear the opposition or more importantly never letting anyone else hear the opposition. Though when it comes to gun laws, it does annoy me when someone misquotes history and calls the gun grabbers Nazis. And don't forget, our very own 1968 GCA was based almost entirely on Hitler's 1938 GCA. These anti gunners are worse than Nazis, they are running with the likes of Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Marx.

I have not been banned yet, but I think asking if the next posting requirement is having to have blonde hair and blue eyes might do it.

Response to quote

It is appropriate that I introduce myself. I am a British citizen and a member of the Facebook group 'Washington State for Gun Control'. Seeing myself quoted on this thread I felt obliged to reply.
It may seem strange for a British citizen to take interest in the US gun control debate but as a strong supporter of gun control I feel inclined to support my American cousins who want their voice heard. Whilst I genuinely have a lot of respect for the US in many ways I have never been able to coprehend why the concept of gun control is so vilified. To me it makes absolute sense. The simple fact is that guns are designed to kill and maim. It seems logical to me therefore to reduce their presence in society. Without going into great comprehensive detail on statistics and the reasons I support gun control... its late here and im not sure if there is a word limitation on comments, I will conclude with this. The United Kingdom, like the United States, is a democracy... we debate and analyse among ourselves on how things should be done; of course there are anti gun-control groups in the UK. There are individuals here who think making guns freely or at least easily available is a good idea and therefore will agree with many of you. They are entitled to their views and are free to raise their views. However I would ask you to be wary of the claims made by these groups- I have seen exagerration and outright distortion in some of their comments and forums. At no point have I pretended there is universal acceptance of our strict gun measures. But most Britons do not own a gun, most Britons do not want a gun and most Britons do not see a need to have a gun. Yes we have crime, yes people are shot here as well but the fact is that gun murder rates- and rates is the key here- in this country rank among the lowest in the world. And it is also a fact that we have some of the strictest controls. I do not think that is a coincidence. So because some of my countrymen want to blow a trumpet against gun control is not significant to me... it is natural that in a free country people will have different opinions. On a side note, I find it dismissive to suggest that only dictatorships support gun control. That is factually inaccurate. Regards

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, It is a Constitutional REPUBLIC. There is a difference and it is NOT a subtle one!

NSH85 said:

It is appropriate that I introduce myself. I am a British citizen and a member of the Facebook group 'Washington State for Gun Control'. Seeing myself quoted on this thread I felt obliged to reply.
It may seem strange for a British citizen to take interest in the US gun control debate but as a strong supporter of gun control I feel inclined to support my American cousins who want their voice heard. Whilst I genuinely have a lot of respect for the US in many ways I have never been able to coprehend why the concept of gun control is so vilified. To me it makes absolute sense. The simple fact is that guns are designed to kill and maim. It seems logical to me therefore to reduce their presence in society. Without going into great comprehensive detail on statistics and the reasons I support gun control... its late here and im not sure if there is a word limitation on comments, I will conclude with this. The United Kingdom, like the United States, is a democracy... we debate and analyse among ourselves on how things should be done; of course there are anti gun-control groups in the UK. There are individuals here who think making guns freely or at least easily available is a good idea and therefore will agree with many of you. They are entitled to their views and are free to raise their views. However I would ask you to be wary of the claims made by these groups- I have seen exagerration and outright distortion in some of their comments and forums. At no point have I pretended there is universal acceptance of our strict gun measures. But most Britons do not own a gun, most Britons do not want a gun and most Britons do not see a need to have a gun. Yes we have crime, yes people are shot here as well but the fact is that gun murder rates- and rates is the key here- in this country rank among the lowest in the world. And it is also a fact that we have some of the strictest controls. I do not think that is a coincidence. So because some of my countrymen want to blow a trumpet against gun control is not significant to me... it is natural that in a free country people will have different opinions. On a side note, I find it dismissive to suggest that only dictatorships support gun control. That is factually inaccurate. Regards

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You live on an island. Control is easier when criminals from a 3rd world country can't just literally walk into your country carrying anything they want. If you want to see what British style gun control would look like in America you need to look at a location with similar demographics. South Africa might b a good place to start. They have strict gun control, but high gun violence.

NSH85 said:

It is appropriate that I introduce myself. I am a British citizen and a member of the Facebook group 'Washington State for Gun Control'. Seeing myself quoted on this thread I felt obliged to reply.
It may seem strange for a British citizen to take interest in the US gun control debate but as a strong supporter of gun control I feel inclined to support my American cousins who want their voice heard. Whilst I genuinely have a lot of respect for the US in many ways I have never been able to coprehend why the concept of gun control is so vilified. To me it makes absolute sense. The simple fact is that guns are designed to kill and maim. It seems logical to me therefore to reduce their presence in society. Without going into great comprehensive detail on statistics and the reasons I support gun control... its late here and im not sure if there is a word limitation on comments, I will conclude with this. The United Kingdom, like the United States, is a democracy... we debate and analyse among ourselves on how things should be done; of course there are anti gun-control groups in the UK. There are individuals here who think making guns freely or at least easily available is a good idea and therefore will agree with many of you. They are entitled to their views and are free to raise their views. However I would ask you to be wary of the claims made by these groups- I have seen exagerration and outright distortion in some of their comments and forums. At no point have I pretended there is universal acceptance of our strict gun measures. But most Britons do not own a gun, most Britons do not want a gun and most Britons do not see a need to have a gun. Yes we have crime, yes people are shot here as well but the fact is that gun murder rates- and rates is the key here- in this country rank among the lowest in the world. And it is also a fact that we have some of the strictest controls. I do not think that is a coincidence. So because some of my countrymen want to blow a trumpet against gun control is not significant to me... it is natural that in a free country people will have different opinions. On a side note, I find it dismissive to suggest that only dictatorships support gun control. That is factually inaccurate. Regards

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Paragraphs would be nice, but I suggest you read this and get back to me: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

In very small part:

Of course, it may be speculated that murder rates around
the world would be higher if guns were more available. But
there is simply no evidence to support this. Like any speculation,
it is not subject to conclusive disproof; but the European
data in Table 1 and the studies across 36 and 21 nations
already discussed show no correlation of high gun ownership
nations and greater murder per capita or lower gun
ownership nations and less murder per capita.48

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Now, unlike the forum on facebook, we're not going to shut down your dissent, but will try to speak to you rationally about it. If only your colleagues were so intellectually honest.

John Lott

To see the whole aricle.

The attacks in Europe might not get as much attention in the U.S. or even in other countries in Europe besides where the attack occurred as the attack in the U.S., but multiple victim public shootings appear to be at least as common in Europe as they are here. The following is a partial list of attacks occurring in Europe since 2001. As mentioned, all of them occurred in gun free zones, places where guns in the hands of civilians were not allowed:
- Zug, Switzerland, September 27, 2001: a man murdered 15 members of a cantonal parliament.
- Tours, France, October 29, 2001: four people were killed and 10 wounded when a French railway worker started killing people at a busy intersection in the city.
- Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: a man kills eight city councilors after a city council meeting.
- Erfurt, Germany on April 26, 2002: a former student kills 18 at a secondary school.
- Freising, Germany on February 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded.
- Turin, Italy on October 15, 2002: Seven people were killed on a hillside overlooking the city.
- Madrid, Spain, October 1, 2006: a man kills two employees and wounds another at a company that he was fired from.
- Emsdetten, Germany, November 20, 2006: a former student murders 11 people at a high school.
- Southern Finland, November 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal were killed at a high school.
- Naples, Italy, September 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall (not included in totals below because it may possibly have involved the mafia).
- Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: 10 people were shot to death at a college.
Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: a 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers.
- Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: ten people injured after a man opened fire on a nursery school.
- Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: three people killed and two people injured by a student at a vocational college.
- Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: three people killed and 1 injured at a crowded cafe.
Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: one dead and 16 wounded in an attack on a Sikh Temple.
- Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: 4 killed while shopping at a mall on New Year's Eve.
- Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: 12 people killed by a British taxi driver.

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Now, unlike the forum on facebook, we're not going to shut down your dissent, but will try to speak to you rationally about it. If only your colleagues were so intellectually honest.

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I agree.... too bad their 1st amendment rights are trying to trump my 2nd amendments rights

NSH85 said:

It is appropriate that I introduce myself. I am a British citizen and a member of the Facebook group 'Washington State for Gun Control'. Seeing myself quoted on this thread I felt obliged to reply.
It may seem strange for a British citizen to take interest in the US gun control debate but as a strong supporter of gun control I feel inclined to support my American cousins who want their voice heard. Whilst I genuinely have a lot of respect for the US in many ways I have never been able to coprehend why the concept of gun control is so vilified. To me it makes absolute sense. The simple fact is that guns are designed to kill and maim. It seems logical to me therefore to reduce their presence in society. Without going into great comprehensive detail on statistics and the reasons I support gun control... its late here and im not sure if there is a word limitation on comments, I will conclude with this. The United Kingdom, like the United States, is a democracy... we debate and analyse among ourselves on how things should be done; of course there are anti gun-control groups in the UK. There are individuals here who think making guns freely or at least easily available is a good idea and therefore will agree with many of you. They are entitled to their views and are free to raise their views. However I would ask you to be wary of the claims made by these groups- I have seen exagerration and outright distortion in some of their comments and forums. At no point have I pretended there is universal acceptance of our strict gun measures. But most Britons do not own a gun, most Britons do not want a gun and most Britons do not see a need to have a gun. Yes we have crime, yes people are shot here as well but the fact is that gun murder rates- and rates is the key here- in this country rank among the lowest in the world. And it is also a fact that we have some of the strictest controls. I do not think that is a coincidence. So because some of my countrymen want to blow a trumpet against gun control is not significant to me... it is natural that in a free country people will have different opinions. On a side note, I find it dismissive to suggest that only dictatorships support gun control. That is factually inaccurate. Regards

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Welcome to our side of the pond. I myself love Britain. We get to see our future through you Brits if we let go of our rights and let one person rule us. There is a reason our Forefathers left and formed a new government.
I also saw a good post that said something like "you gave up 1 gun for 2 cameras". I dont mind the cameras, but I love my gun.
You say guns are made to mame and kill, you evedintly have never been able to load a 50 round magazine into a rifle and open up on a hill side of targets, or have not had a 6 shot competition shooting targets. I carry a gun daily that I hope I will never need, but enjoy the freedom of being able to protect myself in the event I would need it. I hope to only ever fire my gun at a shooting target.
The was a video that has been removed by the user, that showed Brits protesting after having given up their rights and guns, and also warning the USA not to let it happen to us. I have not been able to find it again.
Being from Irish descent, I see that Ireland finally wised up and is allowing citizens to protect themselfs from criminals again in their own homes.
Forgive me if I seem like the typical arrogant American, but we are FREE, and that is what we love about this country. We are standing up and telling our government what we want, not the other way around.
Thank you, and good day sir.

NSH85 said:

It is appropriate that I introduce myself. I am a British citizen and a member of the Facebook group 'Washington State for Gun Control'. Seeing myself quoted on this thread I felt obliged to reply.
It may seem strange for a British citizen to take interest in the US gun control debate but as a strong supporter of gun control I feel inclined to support my American cousins who want their voice heard. Whilst I genuinely have a lot of respect for the US in many ways I have never been able to coprehend why the concept of gun control is so vilified. To me it makes absolute sense. The simple fact is that guns are designed to kill and maim. It seems logical to me therefore to reduce their presence in society. Without going into great comprehensive detail on statistics and the reasons I support gun control... its late here and im not sure if there is a word limitation on comments, I will conclude with this. The United Kingdom, like the United States, is a democracy... we debate and analyse among ourselves on how things should be done; of course there are anti gun-control groups in the UK. There are individuals here who think making guns freely or at least easily available is a good idea and therefore will agree with many of you. They are entitled to their views and are free to raise their views. However I would ask you to be wary of the claims made by these groups- I have seen exagerration and outright distortion in some of their comments and forums. At no point have I pretended there is universal acceptance of our strict gun measures. But most Britons do not own a gun, most Britons do not want a gun and most Britons do not see a need to have a gun. Yes we have crime, yes people are shot here as well but the fact is that gun murder rates- and rates is the key here- in this country rank among the lowest in the world. And it is also a fact that we have some of the strictest controls. I do not think that is a coincidence. So because some of my countrymen want to blow a trumpet against gun control is not significant to me... it is natural that in a free country people will have different opinions. On a side note, I find it dismissive to suggest that only dictatorships support gun control. That is factually inaccurate. Regards

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Greetings! I have seen many rational minds on the side of gun banning, and I've seen many of them be swayed by purely emotional arguments. For clarity's sake, we should establish the difference between gun control and gun banning - the United States already has very strong gun control laws, even though guns are not banned completely.

In order to carry a hidden firearm (and in many states, to carry a firearm at all), our fingerprints must be recorded and checked, our backgrounds must be checked at the federal level to make sure we have not committed crimes or been ruled mentally unstable. All our details are kept in records whenever we purchase firearms, and some states require training (and all suggest it).

Statistical evidence is extremely difficult to use for one side or the other, since it's almost entirely anecdotal. Correlation does NOT equal causation, and a decrease in one statistic may be made useless by another - for example, when guns were completely banned in the UK, knife violence increased to and beyond previous gun violence levels, while gun violence levels decreased significantly. I would expect, since guns were banned completely, that there would be ZERO incidences of gun violence in the UK. The bottom line is, people will find a way to kill other people, even if they have to resort to physical violence or picking up heavy rocks.

Here in the states, (although correlation != causation) gun ownership increased dramatically in November of 2008 from fears that a new presidential administration would seek to ban many classes of firearm. In the following months, violent crime including gun crime dropped by 9% nationwide, when it traditionally rises slightly each year.

The reason guns are such a useful tool is that they allow people who normally could not defend themselves from a more experienced, larger, or murderous individual to do so swiftly, effectively, and with a minimum of injury to themselves. With the proper checks and training, responsible gun ownership is an achievable goal, and in my opinion it benefits society as a whole.

i can't post on there now either.

NSH85 said:

It is appropriate that I introduce myself. I am a British citizen and a member of the Facebook group 'Washington State for Gun Control'. Seeing myself quoted on this thread I felt obliged to reply.

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Welcome to the site. Hopefully you will find that we enjoy a good discussion and generally leave personal attacks out of it.

I would point out one problem with your argument regarding the banning of guns in Britain vs the gun death rate. Although true that gun murders went down dramatically it is also true that violent crime has risen dramatically since the ban. The same has occurred in Australia which implemented a similar ban not to long ago. The advantage to the ready availability of firearms is that it equalizes weak individuals against strong individuals and groups.

A group of 18 year old skinheads can readily attack an old age pensioner if firearms are not allowed. They can carry bats, bottles, and knives, all of which are impractical to ban, and can even attack with their fists and feet. The OAP has no recourse other than to call the police who may or may not be available to respond in time to prevent harm. With a firearm the OAP has become the equal of his or her attackers. Although one could argue that the attackers may have firearms our experience in the US has been that strict laws adding prison time to armed felons (See Project Exile) leads to a significant reduction in criminals carrying guns since they don't really need them. You now have a group of skinheads (to return to my example) being confronted with an armed victim. They generally leave and go find someone easier to attack.

You also then run into the situation that the person intent on harming someone for kicks or robbery doesn't know ahead of time if that person might be armed, or if a bystander might be armed. It has been estimated, based on crime reports and polling data, that upwards of a million and a half people successfully forestall some type of criminal activity in the US each year based on the presence of a firearm. This has led to a decrease in violent crime in the US. It is easier for a rational criminal to break into an empty house and steal stuff than to attack someone who might respond with lethal force.

You should also check out the statistics for "hot" burglaries in Great Britain. It is easier for a criminal to break into a house where the homeowner is present to open the safe and lead them to the valuables, in a world where there is no chance at all that the response to breaking in is to be met with gunfire. Meanwhile, the people in those houses are being brutally attacked for no reason once the criminals are in. Just ask Tony Martin and his neighbors, many of whom were attacked before Mr. Martin responded with force and was jailed for his actions.

We believe, here in America, that the right to self defense is one of the most important rights. Without the right to defend yourself, the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are gone.

Thanks again for taking the time to visit our forum.