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Thread: Felony question

  1. #1
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    Felony question

    Hi, this is my first post.

    I was adjudicated as a juvenile when I was 14 for what would be a felony in adult terms for dwelling, hanging out with the wrong crowd got me in some trouble.
    I'm 19 now and would like to know if this case will effect my ability to own/purchase firearms. I have been around guns/hunting my entire life, and both of my parents are Adams County Deputies. I am a hard working law abiding citizen, well reformed way past the teenage rebellion phase. And I believe strongly in enforcing the constitution. I have searched the internet far and wide for information about this issue but no luck on Colorado's view on this. I would also like to know if this would affect my ability to get a CCW in the future. any help would be much appreciated.

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    My advice would be to get a background investigation on you from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. The website is https://www.cbirecordscheck.com/Comm...imitation.aspx. If your juvenile indiscretion is not on there, I wouldn't worry about it.

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    The advice is much appreciated, I will go ahead and do that. Thank you

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If it is, you can motion with the court for expungement. Depending on what you did, they tend to give a second chance for juvie offenses frequently. This assumes you've kept your nose clean since. You can do this pro se, so no legal expense to you except whatever filing fees there are.

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    Also, and you can read and interpret it yourself as well, but from my understanding of CRS 18-12-108 (Possession or use of a deadly weapon by a previous offender) you may purchase and carry a firearm after ten years from your conviction if you served no time, ten years from release if you didn't have parole/probation, or ten years from release of supervision. This means that if your offense warranted 6 months of jail time and a year of parole you would be able to legally own and carry a firearm at the age of 25.5-26 depending on when you finally wrapped up. However, you will not be able to apply for a CHP and you may not qualify to purchase a firearm through a dealer as you probably wouldn't pass the background check. http://www.gustafsonlaw.com/PDF/Crim..._18-12-108.pdf

    I do think you should check your background through CBI and if it is listed try to get it expunged, but this will come in useful if you're unable to complete this process.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    If the juvenile conviction is still on the record - and depending upon the nature of the offense, and whether or not steps have been taken to have the record of conviction expunged - C.B.I. will report that you are a person prohibited from firearm possession thus blocking any purchase from a dealer, or eligibility for a CO CHP.

    Since it's only been 5 YEARS the juvenile conviction is still well within the TEN YEAR penalty prescription of CRS 18-12-108.

    The Colorado Constitution, Article VII, Section 10, actually provides for the automatic FULL restoration of ALL of your rights of citizenship upon completion of your sentence, BUT the General Assembly, with a "wink" from State courts has managed to "amend" the Constitution of the people of Colorado through the statutory provisions of CRS 18-12-108. HHMMMM - weren't we all taught (in the public schools even) that a constitution can only be changed BY A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT ???

    The grammatical construction of CRS 18-12-108 is such that the General Assembly would merit an "F" grade from any competent 4th Grade English teacher - even in the public schools. This bungling of the construction lends itself (conveniently) to gross misrepresentation of the time computation. Such misrepresentations focus on "prohibited for life" with some "penalty enhancement" (unstated in the text) concept during the prescribed ten year period in spite of the statute's presumed compatibility with the Colorado Constitution. CRS 18-12-108 language construction does clearly delineate the TEN YEAR penalty prescription - only to have it blurred by strained pretensions of wishful thinking on the part of certain vested interests.

    The penalty prescription applies from date of conviction to TEN YEARS FOLLOWING RELEASE FROM incarceration, probation, parole, or other court ordered supervision (drug rehab/mental health, etc). The Tenth Circuit (U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit) has consistenly held to the TEN YEAR interpretation since 1994 when the statute was amended to extend its reach to any felony conviction - not just possession of dangerous weapons, burglary, arson, and use of force or threat of use of force. This holding derives from several decisions commencing with U.S. V HALL .

    There exist a persistence within the Colorado criminal justice community, and anti-Second Amendment booster clubs (Brady Bunch) that Article VII, Section 10 of the CO Constitution only restores the RIGHT TO VOTE upon completion of sentence. This "consensus" strangely recognizes restoration of the right to hold public office, and serve on juries as well - but OH , NO - not the right to keep and bear arms ! Those folks would merit an "F" grade from their 2nd Grade reading teacher- even in the public schools. Article VII, Section 10 means exactly what it says - that ALL rights are restored upon completion of sentence under a COLORADO conviction , unless an exception is provided IN THAT CONSTITUTION - and there is no exception provided.

    In regards to federal law 18 USC Chapter 44 - 921 (g)(1)/ 922 (a)(20) if that juvenile conviction has not been expunged , and your firearm right will not presumably be restored under Colorado law for 5 more years, then you are currently prohibited from firearm possession under both State and federal law at this time. Your status within another State's jurisdiction will depend upon that State's law, and its conjunction with federal law.

    Unless the Colorado Constitution is amended to provide for an exception specifically restricting the right to keep and bear arms - and that will take so doing - Colorado officials are in a tight spot.

    Keep in mind that THIS RIGHT is now extended protection under the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution through the Fourteenth Amendment. (McDonald)
    Althought the SCOTUS made allowance for restricting the rights of felons, Colorado's provision for restoration of all rights provides no exception excluding persons previously convicted ("felons") UNDER COLORADO LAW from the rights restoration.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 10-03-2010 at 10:48 AM.

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    I think that confused me even more on the subject.

    Just from what I gathered rushcreek2, this is what you're getting at.
    According to the Colorado Constitution the rights of an offender are automatically restored after their sentence has been seen to completion. However, under CRS 18-12-108 - which has been upheld in the court systems as the standard since 1994 when it was amended and passed in it's current form - a previously convicted person's rights aren't restored until after ten years from completion of their sentencing. On the other hand, because CRS 18-12-108 extends the restrictions on restoration of rights beyond what was stipulated in the Colorado Constitution it is, or should be at least, defunct as it wasn't made into a constitutional amendment which would have been necessary in legal circumstances.

    If what I just said is what you're trying to get into my thick skull, then I think I got it. If not I'm going to have to try again lol.


    Also, I didn't bring up the restoration of rights in order to say that it was a viable option immediately. I just brought it up to make a point that there are options if he's not able to get his record expunged or if he's worried about legal ramifications if he chooses to forgo expunging his record and wants to understand the legalities of a previous offender purchasing and owning a firearm.

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    Okay, Let me see if I understand what you're saying. If I run the CBI check, and my record shows up, seeing as I'm not a violent offender. I can apply to have that record expunged, and if in fact my records are expunged. I still may not be able to purchase firearms through a dealer, but a private sale would be perfectly legal? With my understanding an expunged juvenile record would still be available to local law enforcement. How would I fare with local law enforcement being caught with a firearm?
    Also, what about open carry. Would I still at least be able to keep that right after all is said and done? All this information is very much appreciated. I have found more valuable information reading through this forum than I have in three months of reading other forums. It's a lifesaver.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Restoration of rights -specifically the firearm right - is the issue - either through expunging the record of a juvenile conviction or pursuit of recognition by State officials of the de facto automatic restoration of rights under Article VII, Section 10 - the latter being the more challenging path.

    Currently C.B.I. and Colorado law enforcement persist in efforts to suppress the reality of restoration of all rights under the State Constitution by simply ignoring the issue - when it is their sworn duty to uphold Colorado law by establishing procedures for sorting the rights issue out- even when they don't like the result of Colorado law. I guess ignoring Colorado law regarding restoration of rights, and impeding the exercise of restored civil rights is easier than building more prisons to keep the violent prone brigands behind bars.

    Confusing ? It is exremely confusing - and by design. Until more people become aware of this organized conspiracy to deprive citizens of their restored rights under Colorado law it will only continue. This is nothing less than an orchestrated official "smoke & mirrors" campaign to cover up a truth that they can't officially bury.

    Post Note - I would work on having the record expunged. That's the best path for now. Until that is accomplished be VERY careful and keep a low profile. What I've expressed about restoration of all rights of citizenship under Colorado law is not generally understood, recognized, acknowledged, or respected by CO law enforcement agencies, and it most probably does not apply to S&WM&P Brighton at this time. As it may apply to others in Colorado - each case must be considered on its own merits and proceed accordingly and carefully. It is more properly addressed in the courts until the bulwark of official resistance is weakened. These folks can make your life miserable ( and expensive) even if they are unable to obtain a conviction under CRS 18-12-108. The 10th Circuit holdings cited do not apply to your situtation at the present in Brighton or anywhere else in CO, and CRS 18-12-108 and federal firearm law does.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 10-02-2010 at 07:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&PBrighton View Post
    I still may not be able to purchase firearms through a dealer, but a private sale would be perfectly legal?
    You can't purchase through a dealer until you're 21 anyhow. TMK, if you have something on your record that says you can't buy from a dealer, you can't POSSESS either. That means your Deputy parents and hunting family would technically be breaking the law for even letting you hold a hold a .22 hunting rifle. If a private seller knows about your record, they would also be breaking the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    You can't purchase through a dealer until you're 21 anyhow. TMK, if you have something on your record that says you can't buy from a dealer, you can't POSSESS either. That means your Deputy parents and hunting family would technically be breaking the law for even letting you hold a hold a .22 hunting rifle. If a private seller knows about your record, they would also be breaking the law.
    I understand that, If you notice in my last reply I said After all is said and done.... Meaning after my record has been expunged.

    Also maybe next time you decide to quote me, maybe quote the whole sentence in question instead of picking and choosing, and twisting my words.
    Last edited by S&WM&PBrighton; 10-03-2010 at 05:39 PM.

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    S&WM&PBrighton, from my understanding, should you be able to have your record expunged you will be able to lawfully own any firearm of your choosing and should pass the background checks that are performed by a dealer. If, however, the state decides to not expunge your record for some reason (if you're not violent and you haven't been in any trouble since your mistake, I don't see why they wouldn't expunge it), then you can legally purchase a firearm from a dealer after ten years from when you were completely off supervision of any kind by the justice system. Again, this is all just from what I can ascertain from the way the laws are written. As Rushcreek has pointed out, there are many little idiosyncrasies in the legislation that surrounds this and it may be wise to consult a competent attorney (I emphasize competent because some may not be too skilled or experienced in matters like this).

    Personally, I would contact the court system and see about getting my record expunged so as to ease the process and to be able to provide proof that you're legal. I wouldn't rely on the restoration of rights laws until they were necessary. Also, as far as I know, if you're legally allowed to own a firearm, you're legally allowed to open carry in Colorado.

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    Read Colorado Revised Statues 19-1-306 for detailed information.

    And then look into this:
    No lawyer is required. I have done this, and it was very simple.
    http://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/...rm_Type_ID/157

    PM me if you have more questions.

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    Thank you, Luv_Jeeps, That is just the information I was looking for. I'm almost positive I won't have an issue expunging my records. Also thank you for offering more guidance, I appreciate it.

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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    If it is, you can motion with the court for expungement. Depending on what you did, they tend to give a second chance for juvie offenses frequently. This assumes you've kept your nose clean since. You can do this pro se, so no legal expense to you except whatever filing fees there are.
    ^This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&PBrighton View Post
    I understand that, If you notice in my last reply I said After all is said and done.... Meaning after my record has been expunged.

    Also maybe next time you decide to quote me, maybe quote the whole sentence in question instead of picking and choosing, and twisting my words.
    Dude, seriously? I overlooked where you said after the record is expunged. I read too fast. I apologize. I was trying to help, same as everyone else. Nowhere did I call you out or try to "twist your words" to accuse you of something. Chill, huh? There is no reason to be so touchy.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 10-04-2010 at 11:21 AM.

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    In regards to Automatic Restoration of Firearms Rights after 10 years... either way..., The ATF certainly will NOT think so... under the term 'Crime Punishable by Imprisonment by more than 1 year', involivng more than 2 years for any State Offense Punishable under the applicable State Law wherein The State the Crime has been Commited.
    Yet another example of how States Rights under the 10th Amendment are being Violated by The Federal Government.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&PBrighton View Post
    Okay, Let me see if I understand what you're saying. If I run the CBI check, and my record shows up, seeing as I'm not a violent offender. I can apply to have that record expunged, and if in fact my records are expunged. I still may not be able to purchase firearms through a dealer, but a private sale would be perfectly legal? With my understanding an expunged juvenile record would still be available to local law enforcement. How would I fare with local law enforcement being caught with a firearm?
    Also, what about open carry. Would I still at least be able to keep that right after all is said and done? All this information is very much appreciated. I have found more valuable information reading through this forum than I have in three months of reading other forums. It's a lifesaver.
    If you get it expunged, you are home free. A nominal NICS would not show the conviction. In many cases, it would take a court order to open the file after expungement. I'm not sure under CO law, however. Be that as it may, you would have rights to purchase a firearm either through a dealer or PP sale. It should have no bearing on CCW application or OC. You may need to supply additonal information on a CCW application, however, but I feel you would be OK.

    As a general rule, criminal court records are public. That means anyone can go to the local courthouse and find out if someone's ever been arrested for, charged with or convicted of a crime. In some states, though, there are ways to hide or even destroy a criminal record, so that almost no one can find out about an arrest or conviction.

    The terms "expungement" and "sealing" are often used interchangeably when it comes to criminal records, but there are some differences. "Sealing" a criminal record is when a court file is hidden from the general public. "Expunging" a criminal record means that the record is completely destroyed; it's as if the crime never happened. In essence, they're the same thing: There are very limited circumstances when a sealed record may be looked at or when the defendant (the person arrested or convicted) has to tell someone that he has a prior arrest or conviction that's been expunged.

    The states have very different laws about sealing and expunging records. Some states don't allow any records to be sealed or expunged. Some allow one or both, but they don't allow either one for some crimes, like murder, kidnapping and sex-related crimes. Colorado laws allow both.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 10-04-2010 at 02:10 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Try to buy a gun through a dealer. You will either pass the background check (and you're fine), or not (and you'll know that your background will be a problem).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    Try to buy a gun through a dealer. You will either pass the background check (and you're fine), or not (and you'll know that your background will be a problem).
    You probably don't have to buy a gun, either. From what I understand, many dealers will be happy to run a check for about $15 whether you buy a gun or not. I'm not sure how long the checks remain valid, of whether they're "same day only, so if you wanted to buy a gun later, you might have to spend another $15.

    The OP said his parents were deputies. Can they look into this issue? I'd think with such law enforcement connections they'd be able to come up with a solid answer.
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