Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Broke that law and didn't even know it.

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Concord, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    98

    Broke that law and didn't even know it.

    As I've said before, I rarely OC because I don't care to deal with people. I CC almost all the time. Well, I went to a restaurant and I didn't think that they served alcohol. I sat down and looked at the menu and what do I see, several types of beers are listed. I had to go back outside and lock my gun up. What do most of y'all do if you go to a restaurant and you're not sure if they serve alcohol?

    I'm seriously considering filing a lawsuit against the state. I can't afford a lawyer but I'm pretty sure that I could represent myself. I've got a general idea of what my argument would be.

    By the way, I'm not going to say the name of the restaurant, nor will I say what city/county it is in, nor will I say when I was there.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam H View Post
    What do most of y'all do if you go to a restaurant and you're not sure if they serve alcohol?
    I call ahead and ask if they serve alcohol...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    434
    You gotta make your own decision there.

    Plenty of people call it both ways.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Resto Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    right here
    Posts
    186
    If I am carrying in a group, I try and avoid eating where alcohol is served. That way I don't have to "unload" when others are with me. Most of the time even my wife is unaware when I'm armed. She doesn't even pay attention, so I guess I conceal it well enough..

    Boy, it sure would be nice if we could get THAT law changed!
    Last edited by Resto Guy; 10-02-2010 at 09:37 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Glendale, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    629
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam H View Post
    I'm seriously considering filing a lawsuit against the state. I can't afford a lawyer but I'm pretty sure that I could represent myself. I've got a general idea of what my argument would be.
    Against who? It's your responsibility to make sure your in compliance with the law.

    ..--Warning--
    --Rule Violation --
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Maverick9110e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    224
    How about posting like an adult instead of calling people a tard?

    I'm 90% sure he was referencing the law against carrying in a location where alcohol is served.
    Last edited by Maverick9110e; 10-02-2010 at 10:14 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Concord, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    98
    I was referring to filing a lawsuit against the state. You know, like the people in King did. And how can someone be a tard if they didn't know they were breaking the law until they had already broke it? I know it's illegal to carry in a place where alcohol is sold and consumed. What I didn't know was that this place served alcohol. I hadn't been there since I started carrying and I didn't pay attention before then.

    Don't be a tard. :P

  8. #8
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    I had the same thing happen to me last summer. I was in downtown Greenville, at a bookstore that also has a coffee shop in it (NOT a chain--a locally-owned business). I was OCing my Para. Walked in, ordered a Thai Iced Tea, then walked over to look at some books.

    Then I noticed a couple sitting at one of the tables, reading books, chatting, and drinking two bottles of local microbrewed beer...

    Whoopsi...

    The guy behind the counter apparently either didn't see my Para (hard to do, in a Serpa and summer clothing) or he didn't know the law, or he thought I was a cop and didn't want to say anything...

    I paid for my bevvie and skeedaddled on out of there, and have made it a point to tell all the other OCers I know in the area that this place is NOT OC-legal, because they do, in fact, have a Beer/Wine liquor license...

    Many states require any venue with a liquor license to post their ABC permit number on the front of the establishment (in the door, or front window). Where I grew up--WV--does this. But not in NC. There is no way to know if any particular venue sells beer, wine, or liquor until you are already inside, and see it on the tables, or sometimes, even until you're seated and see it on the menu...

    Now, if I'm not familiar with a venue, I'll call ahead, or I'll go in when I'm not armed and check it out ahead of time.

    We need to repeal the "restaurant ban" in NC. Now. RIGHT NOW. Let's get behind this for the upcoming GA session (this fall), and let our Reps and State Senators know that their jobs depend on it...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-02-2010 at 11:28 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam H View Post
    I was referring to filing a lawsuit against the state. You know, like the people in King did.
    Unless you are a Bar-certified attorney in NC, and a specialist in Civil Rights Litigation, and have a LOT of money behind you to support a protracted legal battle against an adversary with what amounts to essentially unlimited resources (the State), I'd suggest you just forget about it, and donate to SAF and GRNC, and call your State Reps and Senators once a months--EVERY MONTH--to let the know how much of an infringement the "restaurant ban" is on your rights and privileges as a NC Citizen.

    Let the "big boys" take this one. They can harass the State, draft new bills, and pressure the GA much more effectively than an individual because they represent a constituency.

    You represent a single, disgruntled dude. You don't have much pull with the GA as a single person. But organizations like GRNC, SAF, and the NRA represent MILLIONS of people, and that means they represent MILLIONS of dollars.

    The ONLY thing the weasels in Raleigh understand is dollar signs. They don't understand logic, facts, the Rule of Law or Fundamental Human Rights.

    But if they get threatened with protracted lawsuits, massive tourism boycotts, and the promise of daily large-scale telephone and email bombardment, they often start to "see the error of their ways".

    It took VA a few years to get their Restaurant Ban for CC overturned, but they finally got it last year. It's just a matter of time before we get the same thing here--no restrictions on carry--OC or CC--in venues that serve alcohol.

    The current SAF lawsuit regarding the State of Emergency Ban will be another "stroke of the axe of Liberty" in this Tree of Oppression. Combined with Heller and McDonald, and some of the other "puzzle piece" lawsuits SAF is filing in other states, it's just a matter of time before NC comes around to a more "VA style" of doing things with regards to TRUE State Preemption, Freedom To Carry, and standardized CC permit issuance...

    Chin up, lads. The battle is just beginning, and we hold ALL the cards...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-02-2010 at 11:42 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    High Point, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    246
    i know a lot of people with ccw that carry where they are not allowed to do so.
    when I ask them why, they always tell me "if you are concealing it right...you will never get caught"
    then they always tell me "self defense trumps most other laws, and i may lose my ccw but ill still be alive."

    I think they should have a sing on the door stating they serve.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Preble View Post
    i know a lot of people with ccw that carry where they are not allowed to do so.
    when I ask them why, they always tell me "if you are concealing it right...you will never get caught"
    then they always tell me "self defense trumps most other laws, and i may lose my ccw but ill still be alive."

    And as we've seen in the recent Charlottesville Pizza Hut incident, even when a CCer is found out because he has to actually deploy his concealed handgun and shoot threee BGs because he feared for his life--even when it's in an establishment that served (and is therefore illegal to carry in), the State doesn't seem too willing to prosecute, or even charge him with the requisite misdemeanor.

    It doesn't say anywhere in the restaurant ban wording that "it's not OK, unless you are attacked by criminals, and then we'll give you a pass". It says it's not legal to carry--OC or CC in ANY establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on premise.

    But political expediency seems to be WAY more important in NC these days that actually following the Rule of Law.

    Personally, I'd like to see the Pizza Hut guy charged with a Misdemeanor Carry charge. The public outrage would be so huge that even the NRA would jump on THAT lawsuit. But the NC AG wouldn't DARE charge this guy, because they know there isn't a court in the State that would find him guilty, and that would set a precedent that SAF could VERY easily parlay into getting the Restaurant Ban tossed out completely in court.

    When political expediency trumps the Rule of Law, the system has completely failed. Our government isn't just a little messed up folks--it is a lawless oligarchy, and we need to throw the bums out in November. Lets send an unequivocal message to our Governor in November that if things don't start changing REAL SOON, she will be filing for unemployment in 2012...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  12. #12
    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    247
    Are you sure the Pizza Hut guy broke the concealed carry law? I thought he only broke corp policy for employees being armed. All the Pizza Huts near me are carry-out only and don't serve alcohol so not sure about the one he was in. Even if the one he was in did fall under serve and consume laws, I don't think they apply to employees.
    I too would like to see that piece of the rule book thrown out, hopefully it can be done without anyone facing criminal charges first since in the end, they would still be guilty of the crime.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    RedFive,

    That Pizza hut, to my understanding is a full-service restaurant. And since it is Pizza Hut's formal policy that employees can't carry (it's in the employee manual), I doubt he had permission from the owner. And if he was the owner, he STILL doesn't have the legal right to go against corporate policy, and would run the risk of losing his franchise if he does...

    Employees can be exempted from the ban ONLY if they are in fact the OWNER or LESSEE of the property, are hired as security guards, or are "participants" in the event and have express permission from the owner of the venue...

    For instance, at "Pirate Fest" this summer in Greenville, there were some Pirate Reenactors who gave a blackpowder gun demonstration, and they were carrying their pistols in their belts in the "alcohol consumption" section of the street fare. Since they had permission from the organizers of the event to have firearms as part of their demonstration, they were exempt from the firearms prohibition, even though they were--later in the day--in the area covered by the temporary Beer and Wine permit issued to the event...

    But I don't think ANY employee can get such an exemption under the law for a restaurant. I don't think a bartender or waitress would count as a "participant in an event" under the law as written...


    § 14‑269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (b) This section shall not apply to the following:
    (1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269;
    (2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment;
    (3) A person participating in the event, if he is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event; and
    (4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event. (1977, c. 1016, s. 1; 1981, c. 412, s. 4, c. 747, s. 66; 1993, c. 539, s. 165; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-03-2010 at 07:20 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    High Point, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    RedFive,

    That Pizza hut, to my understanding is a full-service restaurant. And since it is Pizza Hut's formal policy that employees can't carry (it's in the employee manual), I doubt he had permission from the owner. And if he was the owner, he STILL doesn't have the legal right to go against corporate policy, and would run the risk of losing his franchise if he does...

    Employees can be exempted from the ban ONLY if they are in fact the OWNER or LESSEE of the property, are hired as security guards, or are "participants" in the event and have express permission from the owner of the venue...

    For instance, at "Pirate Fest" this summer in Greenville, there were some Pirate Reenactors who gave a blackpowder gun demonstration, and they were carrying their pistols in their belts in the "alcohol consumption" section of the street fare. Since they had permission from the organizers of the event to have firearms as part of their demonstration, they were exempt from the firearms prohibition, even though they were--later in the day--in the area covered by the temporary Beer and Wine permit issued to the event...

    But I don't think ANY employee can get such an exemption under the law for a restaurant. I don't think a bartender or waitress would count as a "participant in an event" under the law as written...


    I thought that a street was not an "establishment"

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...t=black+powder
    Last edited by Preble; 10-03-2010 at 09:41 PM. Reason: found link

  15. #15
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Preble View Post
    I thought that a street was not an "establishment"

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...t=black+powder

    Go back and read closer...

    After consulting the AG, I was told there is no established case law as to whether or not the street (when it is included in the zone for a temporary ABC permit) constitutes an "establishment". Such a situation would be up to "officer discretion", and would ultimately be sorted out by the courts. But if you go by the letter of the law, it would...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-04-2010 at 09:36 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    High Point, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    246

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Go back and read closer...

    After consulting the AG, I was told there is no established case law as to whether or not the street (when it is included in the zone for a temporary ABC permit) constitutes an "establishment". Such a situation would be up to "officer discretion", and would ultimately be sorted out by the courts. But if you go by the letter of the law, it would...


    man, we need to get somethings changed...badly

  17. #17
    Regular Member smlawrence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Colfax, NC
    Posts
    261
    Just cause I'm bored this evening I'll jump in, btw, I'm still green behind the ears and learning so please don't chew me too bad if I say the wrong thing.

    With that said, how many of you wear your seatbelt every single time you get behind the wheel of your car? If you smoke, how many of you throw your cigarette butt out of your car window when finished? Not every law gets followed to the T everyday by good, ethical, and moral people including by me. I would carry depending on where I'm going into. Life before law IMO.
    "God, Guns, & Guts Made America, Lets Use All 3!!!"

  18. #18
    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    247
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    RedFive,

    That Pizza hut, to my understanding is a full-service restaurant. And since it is Pizza Hut's formal policy that employees can't carry (it's in the employee manual), I doubt he had permission from the owner. And if he was the owner, he STILL doesn't have the legal right to go against corporate policy, and would run the risk of losing his franchise if he does...

    Employees can be exempted from the ban ONLY if they are in fact the OWNER or LESSEE of the property, are hired as security guards, or are "participants" in the event and have express permission from the owner of the venue...

    For instance, at "Pirate Fest" this summer in Greenville, there were some Pirate Reenactors who gave a blackpowder gun demonstration, and they were carrying their pistols in their belts in the "alcohol consumption" section of the street fare. Since they had permission from the organizers of the event to have firearms as part of their demonstration, they were exempt from the firearms prohibition, even though they were--later in the day--in the area covered by the temporary Beer and Wine permit issued to the event...

    But I don't think ANY employee can get such an exemption under the law for a restaurant. I don't think a bartender or waitress would count as a "participant in an event" under the law as written...


    Dreamer
    Have a look at the picture in the observer photo located at:
    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...#ixzz10qlAvfX9

    Sure looks like the Pizza Huts near me, carry out only store fronts with no alcohol sold, just saying.

    Also, would be pretty hard for the police to charge an employee with the concealed weapon crime since at the time, they would have no idea if the employee was the lessor or owner. As for franchise lessors, so they break corp policy and lose their franchise (maybe), still not a crime.

    Either way, no charges filed, which is the right thing in this case. If he gets fired, well better to lose the job than lose the life.

  19. #19
    Regular Member smlawrence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Colfax, NC
    Posts
    261
    I almost did the same thing. I walked into a restaurant for lunch today and just as soon as I walked in the door I saw a guy drinking from a beer bottle. Just as I saw it, the hostess asked if she could seat us. I said that I was afraid we were going to have to eat elsewhere because they serve alcohol and I was OC'ing a gun. It was a pizza place and I had forgotten that they served since I hadn't eaten there in a while. Guess I'll keep it in mind for the future. Would be nice to not have that concern to worry with.
    "God, Guns, & Guts Made America, Lets Use All 3!!!"

  20. #20
    mattwestm
    Guest
    Ever since I started OC'ing, I've started looking on doors of businesses for a "firearms prohibited" sign. I can't recall of any in Greenville with such a sign. I also started to take notice at every restaurant I went in for alcohol. It's surprising that almost all restaurants serve alcohol, except for fast food places.

    Sidenote: I went to Toyota of Greenville today to get some touchup paint for my car. They had a sign on the door that said "Firearms prohibited". I thought state law required the sign with the pistol with the red circle/slash over it? Dreamer, you probably know the answer to this one. If I am correct, can a CHP holder disregard such a sign if it isn't up to code?

  21. #21
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    862
    Quote Originally Posted by mattwestm View Post
    Ever since I started OC'ing, I've started looking on doors of businesses for a "firearms prohibited" sign. I can't recall of any in Greenville with such a sign. I also started to take notice at every restaurant I went in for alcohol. It's surprising that almost all restaurants serve alcohol, except for fast food places.

    Sidenote: I went to Toyota of Greenville today to get some touchup paint for my car. They had a sign on the door that said "Firearms prohibited". I thought state law required the sign with the pistol with the red circle/slash over it? Dreamer, you probably know the answer to this one. If I am correct, can a CHP holder disregard such a sign if it isn't up to code?
    No it doesn't have to be the common sign you are used to seeing. They can have it written in Crayon on a paper plate if they choose to and it still is legal for notification at their business.
    Establishments are under no obligation to post using any sort of "approved" signage and a CHP holder (or OC'er for that matter) can technically be charged with trespassing if they disregard any posting a business has used.

    One of my doctor's offices that I go to has a "different" sign hanging on his door that states "Absolutely no firearms allowed inside or on premises". This is sufficient to express his intentions legally.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    No it doesn't have to be the common sign you are used to seeing. They can have it written in Crayon on a paper plate if they choose to and it still is legal for notification at their business.
    Establishments are under no obligation to post using any sort of "approved" signage and a CHP holder (or OC'er for that matter) can technically be charged with trespassing if they disregard any posting a business has used.

    One of my doctor's offices that I go to has a "different" sign hanging on his door that states "Absolutely no firearms allowed inside or on premises". This is sufficient to express his intentions legally.
    Rotorhead is right, law says only that the sign has to be conspicuous, you should not have to look for it.
    I don't. It it doesn't stick me in the eye when I go through a door, I don't worry about it.
    Last edited by cricketdad; 10-19-2010 at 05:30 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    462
    Quote Originally Posted by cricketdad View Post
    Rotorhead is right, law says only that the sign has to be conspicuous, you should not have to look for it.
    I don't. It it doesn't stick me in the eye when I go through a door, I don't worry about it.
    Pretty sure the law also says that the sign has to specify that concealed carry is forbidden. No guns allowed signs do not fit that requirement but it would probably be sorted out by the courts.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    mekender, I think you are confusing the mention of signs in the CC-related statutes with an actual statute codifying the signage.


    In the CC statute, it DOES say you can't carry where it is posted. But NC does not specifically codify the wording or graphical format of "no guns" signage. As private property, all they have to do is post clear wording that they don't allow firearms to make it "off limits" for leal carry.

    As "rotohead" so eloquently put it, they could write "No Guns Allowed" in crayon on a paper plate and tape it to the front door, and it would be just as legitimate as a fancy screen printed sign...

    Some states (like AZ) actually DO codify their signage, and have downloadable versions on their government websites:

    http://www.azliquor.gov/firearms.html

    But in NC, there is no official legal standard for signs that prohibit carrying of firearms. Mostly you see the "circle-slash" signs, with a variety of wording. Most of the Malls don't do that--they post a lengthy text-filled poster with their "code of conduct" and somewhere buried in a mass of 12pt type is the line "no guns or weapons of any type allowed". Which makes you wonder how they can sell things like kitchen knives or baseball bats in those places...

    If you violate a sign, its just a misdemeanor. If you are CCing OR OCing and they catch you carrying, it's an automatic midemeanor violation, even if you leave as soon as you are asked to leave, because the sign sets up a situation tha tyou have intentionally ignored--like hiking thorough someone's farm that has "No Trespassing" signs posted on it.

    If you are OCing or CCing, and a business is NOT clearly posted, and you get caught, it's not a violation until someone asks you to leave and you refuse. Then it's misdemeanor trespassing. If you leave without a fuss, it's "no harm, no foul" and there can be no charges made.

    HOWEVER, county and local government buildings are often not posted, and it is against many local ordinances to carry in government buildings, so if you get caught, you're gonna be in violation of SOME law, even if you didn't know about it, and it wasn't posted...

    Tricky stuff, carrying here in NC...

    I've been burning up the AG's phone line the last few months with questions like this.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-19-2010 at 01:09 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  25. #25
    mattwestm
    Guest
    I wonder why businesses ban firearms anyways. Maybe they don't want their customers to see a handgun being OC'd.

    I've been thinking this for the longest time, ever since I started shooting. What's the big deal with gun control, banning guns, etc? If someone really wants to do harm, there are plenty of ways of achieving it without a firearm. I actually have more fear of dying from a car crash or getting run over by some crazy driver than I do dying from a bullet.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •