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Thread: Beaverton OC incident with phone audio

  1. #1
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Beaverton OC incident with phone audio

    another strong handed OC incident, this time in Beaverton Oregon via NW Firearms

    http://www.northwestfirearms.com/for...on-police.html

    recorded phone conversation link provided

  2. #2
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    Oregon is a pro-Firearm State.
    I was disappointed in listening to Sgt. Burke of Beaverton Police trying to convince a Citizen that Open Carry is bouderline Disorderly Conduct.
    Oregon allows Public Building Carry by License holders as well.
    Local Ordinances are meaningless.
    Last edited by aadvark; 10-03-2010 at 05:07 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    another strong handed OC incident, this time in Beaverton Oregon via NW Firearms

    http://www.northwestfirearms.com/for...on-police.html

    recorded phone conversation link provided
    I am not a lawyer.....

    First of all let me tell everyone that just carrying your gun on your hip in a legal manner is not grounds for an illegal terry stop. They cannot i repeat cannot stop you for the mere presence of a legaly carried firearm, for that matter they cant ask for id, you dont have to show them any, just tell them your name, no license required to openly carry so you don't have to show them your CHL either, unless your in a public building or in a banned city. A man with a gun call, yes they can come and politely ask you anything that's there right, but you don't have to produce anything for them, ask them if you are being detained and if your free to go. If they say no your not being detained then you say have a nice day and walk away, if they say you are being detained then don't consent to thier searches, if they search you anyways let them. because they just commited a crime and violated your 4th amendment based on an illegal stop of your 2nd amendment. Then it's grounds for a lawsuit which your probably going to win.
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-03-2010 at 07:19 PM.

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    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/...ight_risk.html

    Sounds to me like 19 grand was not enough of a lesson to the department there.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
    Regular Member Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/...ight_risk.html

    Sounds to me like 19 grand was not enough of a lesson to the department there.
    Maybe 19 grand x all of us would be.....

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I am not a lawyer.....

    First of all let me tell everyone that just carrying your gun on your hip in a legal manner is not grounds for an illegal terry stop. They cannot i repeat cannot stop you for the mere presence of a legaly carried firearm, for that matter they cant ask for id, you dont have to show them any, just tell them your name, no license required to openly carry so you don't have to show them your CHL either, unless your in a public building or in a banned city. A man with a gun call, yes they can come and politely ask you anything that's there right, but you don't have to produce anything for them, ask them if you are being detained and if your free to go. If they say no your not being detained then you say have a nice day and walk away, if they say you are being detained then don't consent to thier searches, if they search you anyways let them. because they just commited a crime and violated your 4th amendment based on an illegal stop of your 2nd amendment. Then it's grounds for a lawsuit which your probably going to win.
    Cites, please.

    Forum Rule #5:

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

  7. #7
    Regular Member Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cites, please.

    Forum Rule #5:

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    131.615

    Stopping of persons
    (1) A peace officer who reasonably suspects that a person has committed or is about to commit a crime may stop the person and, after informing the person that the peace officer is a peace officer, make a reasonable inquiry.

    (2) The detention and inquiry shall be conducted in the vicinity of the stop and for no longer than a reasonable time.

    (3) The inquiry shall be considered reasonable if it is limited to:

    (a) The immediate circumstances that aroused the officer’s suspicion;

    (b) Other circumstances arising during the course of the detention and inquiry that give rise to a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity; and

    (c) Ensuring the safety of the officer, the person stopped or other persons present, including an inquiry regarding the presence of weapons.

    (4) The inquiry may include a request for consent to search in relation to the circumstances specified in subsection (3) of this section or to search for items of evidence otherwise subject to search or seizure under ORS 133.535 (Permissible objects of search and seizure).

    (5) A peace officer making a stop may use the degree of force reasonably necessary to make the stop and ensure the safety of the peace officer, the person stopped or other persons who are present. [1973 c.836 31; 1997 c.866 1



    Know Your Rights -- Your Rights in Oregon
    If you are approached by state or local police and you are not driving a car …

    •Your Rights
    You do not have to stop unless ordered by the police to stop.
    •Unless you are ordered to stop, you may leave at any time, but you should ask the police whether you are free to leave.
    •You do not have to answer police questions without a lawyer present. You can tell the police that you want to speak to a lawyer before answering any questions.
    •You may refuse to provide your Social Security number to the police.
    •You may be required to show your green card if it is your only form of identification and you are being detained or arrested for a crime.
    •The police will ask you to identify yourself. It is not illegal in Oregon to refuse to identify yourself; but you should never give the police false identification information.
    You do not have to consent to any search and/or seizure. If the police threaten to get a warrant, you may tell them to get one. The police may be able to detain you until they obtain a warrant.

    •If the police search you without a warrant, do not resist, simply inform them that you are not consenting.
    •You do not have to leave the vicinity of the stop with the police unless you have been arrested.
    •If any property is taken from you by the police, you have a right to request a receipt.




    •Police Authority
    Police can order you to stop if they reasonably suspect that you have committed or are about to commit a crime.
    •Police can also stop you if they have reasonable grounds to believe that you have committed a violation. Police may detain you until they establish your identity.
    •If the stop is for a crime, you may be detained for a reasonable period of time. If you are not a US citizen and you are detained or arrested for a crime, the police may ask you to show your immigration papers.
    •Police may ask for consent to search or inquire about the presence of weapons. The police may pat your clothing down for weapons, without consent, if they have reason to believe that you are presently carrying a weapon.


    Remember
    You should be polite to the police at all times. Anything you say can be used against you.

    •It is a crime to give the police false information about your identity.
    •If you are not a US citizen, under federal law you are required to carry immigration documents at all times.
    •You may ask the police for their names and badge numbers. You may also request business cards.
    •In many situations the police do not have to advise you of “Miranda” rights in order to use your statements in court.

    That is From the American Civil Liberties Union in Oregon...


    And since open carry in oregon is not illegal then there is no reasonable cause to stop an open carrier.
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-03-2010 at 10:12 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Christopher's Avatar
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    Sorry about not citing fellas....

  9. #9
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Cripe we have to cite things that are COMMON knowledge now? Yikes!!!!

    Okay, so I read the posts on the linked page where the OP detailed the incident.

    1) You do NOT have to have permission to record audio or audio/video (of which only the audio portion is a legal hassle) you only have to INFORM. They can say they don't like it but that's too bad, the law says you have to INFORM not "get permission". Start your recording device and then state nice and clearly so that it picks it up "OFFICER I AM RECORDIZNG AUDIO".

    ORS 165.540 (1) (c)

    165.540 (1) Except as otherwise provided in ORS 133.724 or 133.726 or subsections (2) to (7) of this section, a person may not:

    (c) Obtain or attempt to obtain the whole or any part of a conversation by means of any device, contrivance, machine or apparatus, whether electrical, mechanical, manual or otherwise, if not all participants in the conversation are specifically informed that their conversation is being obtained.

    For recording phone conversations, Oregon is a "one party" state. i.e. only one party to the phone call needs to know that the conversation is being recorded (that would be the one doing the recording). Seems silly that a phone conversation can be recorded without informing the other parties but not a face to face conversation in a public place. Something we need to get the legislature to fix.

    ORS 165.540 Obtaining contents of communications. (1) Except as otherwise provided in ORS 133.724 or 133.726 or subsections (2) to (7) of this section, a person may not:

    (a) Obtain or attempt to obtain the whole or any part of a telecommunication or a radio communication to which the person is not a participant, by means of any device, contrivance, machine or apparatus, whether electrical, mechanical, manual or otherwise, unless consent is given by at least one participant.

    There are, of course, exceptions to both of these statutes but for the purposes of this debate they aren't needed since the statutes listed above contain the legal authority and circumstances for recording face to face and telephone/radio conversations to which a person is a party.


    All that said, I would NOT recommend breaking out the CHL and ID before the officers ask for it. I also would not recommend doing anything other than showing them the CHL which authorizes you to carry loaded in their ban city and then saying something to the effect that now that they've seen your CHL and know that you are legal are you free to go. They do not have RAS for a Terry stop once they have determined that you are exempt from their ban city ordinances (ORS 166.170 through 173) and that you are lawfully carrying (ORS 166.260, if on a "public building" as defined in ORS 166.360 then ORS 166.370 which exempts CHL holders applies).

    Additionallly, ORS 166.170 through 173 DO NOT authorize cities and counties to regulate the transportation, possession, etc. of ammunition. Therefore ban cities such as Portland that prohibit having loaded mags without a CHL have no legal standing for those provisions.....HOWEVER you do NOT want to be the test case as that will be an expensive and troublesome battle to fight on your own.

    EDIT ADD: Citizen, did I cite to authority well enough? (smiling)
    Last edited by We-the-People; 10-05-2010 at 03:22 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Now a question from me to any who may know...I'll post a new thread topic if I don't get an answer here but in the OP's recital (on his linked page) he mentioned showing his CHL AND ID......

    Since Oregon CHL's have a photo and are state issued, isn't that sufficient identification to prove you're legally concealed (or loaded open carry in a ban city)? Obviously if you're driving you'd need to have your drivers license, but when on foot, why would you need to show both? The only requirements that I am aware of are to show your CHL if concealed (or loaded open in a ban city).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    another strong handed OC incident, this time in Beaverton Oregon via NW Firearms

    http://www.northwestfirearms.com/for...on-police.html

    recorded phone conversation link provided

    This is pretty ridicules. Sounds like the officers trying to show their authority. And for the phone conversation, that officer needs to be the one reading up on the laws. You can open carry in any city in Oregon with a CHL. When I see somebody carrying a firearm in a holster out in the open, I don't have any worry about them. When is the last time you saw a story about somebody open carrying go and shoot someplace up? I haven't. Keep up the OC! It's pretty sad that now a days people are so concerned with others trying to carry protection.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    Now a question from me to any who may know...I'll post a new thread topic if I don't get an answer here but in the OP's recital (on his linked page) he mentioned showing his CHL AND ID......

    Since Oregon CHL's have a photo and are state issued, isn't that sufficient identification to prove you're legally concealed (or loaded open carry in a ban city)? Obviously if you're driving you'd need to have your drivers license, but when on foot, why would you need to show both? The only requirements that I am aware of are to show your CHL if concealed (or loaded open in a ban city).
    Good question, i guess it's time for some endless google searches to find out

  13. #13
    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    Maybe they need to refer to their own training bulletin

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ining+bulletin

  14. #14
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cremator75 View Post
    Maybe they need to refer to their own training bulletin

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ining+bulletin
    Only problem is the bulletin discusses firearms in public buildings not public places. The location of the OP's incident was, by legal definiton, a public place, not building.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Remeber...

    In cities that have their own ordinance for Unloaded OC the LEOs can perform a Terry Stop. They would be investigating whether or not your handgun is unloaded OR you have a CHL on you and are thus exempt.

    However, once you show your CHL or that the weapon is unloaded, that's the end of it, the stop should be over at that point.

    If you're not in a Unloaded OC city, then you should not be stopped just for OC. OC is not disorderly conduct in and by itself, there has to be other circumstances for a DC charge.

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