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Thread: Wisconsin Public Radio interview this morning

  1. #1
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Wisconsin Public Radio interview this morning

    Did the Joy Cardin show in WPR from 7am to 7:30 this morning.

    Archive:

    http://wpr.org/wcast/download-mp3-re...&iNoteID=93007

    If that link doesn't work, here is another link:

    http://www.wpr.org/webcasting/audioa...y.cfm?Code=jca
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    Very nice work Nik.

    We could not possibly have a better spokesman than you. I'm envious of how easily you conjure those spot-on replies.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Very good job! I liked it that most of the callers were positive.

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    Great job Nik - your interview skills are top notch! Overall I think a good deal of common questions and misconceptions were asked and answered. WPR isn't the first radio network one thinks of when it comes to 2A topics so kudos to them as well for addressing the issue.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Good job Nik!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    Did the Joy Cardin show in WPR from 7am to 7:30 this morning.

    Archive:

    http://wpr.org/wcast/download-mp3-re...&iNoteID=93007

    If that link doesn't work, here is another link:

    http://www.wpr.org/webcasting/audioa...y.cfm?Code=jca
    Very nice interview! Well spoken and explained. I always love the liberal media that comes out with rhetoric and public sympathy comments. Facts and common sense always turn away those though. Well done.

    One of the more serious offenses in my opinion is as you mentioned . . . the fact that oaths' of office were disregarded. Blatant disregard for those will begin with more rhetorical comments of, "it's better to er on the side of caution" or "it's always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission".

    Again, well done.

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    Outstanding job Nik. You did not miss a thing. If anyone wanted brief but thorough primer on open carry in Wisconsin that was it. It is great to think how many people were educated by listening to that broadcast. Moving the ball forward.

  8. #8
    XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX
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    great job nik as always, however I don't think it's accurate to state that a felon would never open carry, it is amazing at what criminals will and frequently do, do.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    great job nik as always, however I don't think it's accurate to state that a felon would never open carry, it is amazing at what criminals will and frequently do, do.
    My comments about felon's open-carrying were based on logic and norms, not hypotheticals and anomaly.

    I'm not sure it would serve the cause to incite fear among the listening public that felons "might" open-carry when it doesn't make sense that they would. AND there is no evidence they do.

    My job is to spread logic and advance the cause, not substantiate myth.
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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    My comments about felon's open-carrying were based on logic and norms, not hypotheticals and anomaly.

    I'm not sure it would serve the cause to incite fear among the listening public that felons "might" open-carry when it doesn't make sense that they would. AND there is no evidence they do.

    My job is to spread logic and advance the cause, not substantiate myth.
    +1

  11. #11
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    great job nik as always, however I don't think it's accurate to state that a felon would never open carry, it is amazing at what criminals will and frequently do, do.
    "Never" is an accurate term for behavior which is so statistically improbable that it is non-existent in the present and virtually non-existent as an expectation in the future. While you mention "it is amazing what criminals will and frequently do", and I agree that they often do surprisingly bold or surprisingly stupid things, carrying a properly holstered handgun in the open in public simply is not a thing that felons will and frequently do. They just don't do it. They never do it.

    It is just as accurate to say "Men would never use panty-liners". Even though it is within the realm of possibility, it just doesn't happen.

    Nik is correct in saying "never".
    Last edited by DanM; 10-06-2010 at 11:26 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  12. #12
    McX
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    listening now. supremely well done Nick!

  13. #13
    XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    "Never" is an accurate term for behavior which is so statistically improbable that it is non-existent in the present and virtually non-existent as an expectation in the future. While you mention "it is amazing what criminals will and frequently do", and I agree that they often do surprisingly bold or surprisingly stupid things, carrying a properly holstered handgun in the open in public simply is not a thing that felons will and frequently do. They just don't do it. They never do it.

    It is just as accurate to say "Men would never use panty-liners". Even though it is within the realm of possibility, it just doesn't happen.

    Nik is correct in saying "never".
    and you know this because your a felon and don't do it ? never is a word that frankly should not be used, it's this lack of imagination that leaves people open to attacks. It's like saying marshal law will never be declared. you do not know this nor could you. I know felons who hunt openly with guns (I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS)....i suppose this also never happens in your mind.

    "men would never use panty-liners" and i suppose men would "never" wear womens clothing or date another man, regardless of what most would or would not do does not leave the possibility of the unthinkable happening and if you can't see that then we seriously have nothing more to discuss for your mind is closed. go back to believing what you are told.

    I do however agree stating that such a thing could happen (which it could) would go against "your" agenda's of gun rights, you are so into your rights of constitution you are simply blinded that you are a slave to a system in which gives you rules and boundaries which frankly are just methods of controling you. WAKE UP!!!!
    We ALL have a god givin right and yet you choose to spend your time squabiling over your goverment givin right, thats just ammusing to me.
    interesting reading if your open minded

    funny how one makes an observation and suddenly gets attacked for making it. seems like a theme in this forum.
    Last edited by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX; 10-06-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    and you know this because your a felon and don't do it ?
    No. I know this because I pay attention to news, especially law enforcement reporting. All of which demonstrably shows that felons never open carry.


    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    never is a word that frankly should not be used
    No. It should always be used if it is correct. A great example of correctness: "Felons never open carry."


    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    It's like saying marshal law will never be declared.
    No. Martial law (or something identical to it) is something that happens (example: during Hurricane Katrina). Felons open carrying is something that NEVER happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    I know felons who hunt openly with guns (I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS)....i suppose this also never happens in your mind.
    We're talking about felons open carrying (i.e., carrying a holstered handgun in the open in public). We're not talking about felons hunting with guns. The statement was "Felons never open carry." Open carry has a specific meaning in the context of Nik's use, and the context of this website, and it doesn't mean felons hunting with guns. Stay on what Nik said in context, not other completely different hypothetical statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    "men would never use panty-liners" and i suppose men would "never" wear womens clothing or date another man, regardless of what most would or would not do does not leave the possibility of the unthinkable happening
    You are not recognizing the difference between things that are in evidence as happening and those that have no evidence of happening:
    --Men using panty-liners: absolutely no evidence, news, studies, etc. that this happens.
    --Men wearing women's clothes: plenty of evidence that this happens.
    --Men dating other men: plenty of evidence that this happens.

    Thus, the full weight of information and reporting relevant to the question of whether or not felons open carry demonstrates felons NEVER open carry, but if you have evidence that they do then please share it. And stick to "open carry" as used in the context of the open carry movement, which is the way Nik clearly meant it: carry of a properly holstered handgun in the open in public.


    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    I do however agree stating that such a thing could happen (which it could) would go against "your" agenda's of gun rights
    Stating that felons open carry is a lie. Whatever your agenda, it is best served by being truthful. And the truth is that felons never open carry.


    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    funny how one makes an observation and suddenly gets attacked for making it.
    I don't think you should confuse debate about what you said as an attack. If you say things that people disagree with, they are going to share their disagreement. That's all it is.
    Last edited by DanM; 10-06-2010 at 05:08 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  15. #15
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    felons never open carry.
    I used that argument with the Madison Police Department and they said 'That would be the best way for them to sneak up on people'!

  16. #16
    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    I woke up and the interview was just starting. I'm glad you had Joy doing the interview instead of a couple of other people on that station. I still miss Tom Clark in that spot but she does good and it was great to hear you on the show doing a great job.

  17. #17
    XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    No. I know this because I pay attention to news, especially law enforcement reporting. All of which demonstrably shows that felons never open carry.




    No. It should always be used if it is correct. A great example of correctness: "Felons never open carry."




    No. Martial law (or something identical to it) is something that happens (example: during Hurricane Katrina). Felons open carrying is something that NEVER happens.




    We're talking about felons open carrying (i.e., carrying a holstered handgun in the open in public). We're not talking about felons hunting with guns. The statement was "Felons never open carry." Open carry has a specific meaning in the context of Nik's use, and the context of this website, and it doesn't mean felons hunting with guns. Stay on what Nik said in context, not other completely different hypothetical statements.




    You are not recognizing the difference between things that are in evidence as happening and those that have no evidence of happening:
    --Men using panty-liners: absolutely no evidence, news, studies, etc. that this happens.
    --Men wearing women's clothes: plenty of evidence that this happens.
    --Men dating other men: plenty of evidence that this happens.

    Thus, the full weight of information and reporting relevant to the question of whether or not felons open carry demonstrates felons NEVER open carry, but if you have evidence that they do then please share it. And stick to "open carry" as used in the context of the open carry movement, which is the way Nik clearly meant it: carry of a properly holstered handgun in the open in public.




    Stating that felons open carry is a lie. Whatever your agenda, it is best served by being truthful. And the truth is that felons never open carry.




    I don't think you should confuse debate about what you said as an attack. If you say things that people disagree with, they are going to share their disagreement. That's all it is.
    Do you seriously think a felon WOULD NEVER open carry, this statment is just incorrect.

    you state this as though it's a fact a felon would never do it, like you suddenly speak for all felons and are an expert on the habbits of a felon, GET F'N REAL!!!!
    Last edited by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX; 10-06-2010 at 06:11 PM.

  18. #18
    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    Nik, you are an excellent spokesman and you devote an incredible amount of time to this organization. I could not do nearly as well and I am very grateful you are on the side of open carry. That said, my preference is that you refrain from using the word "never" when speaking of whether felons would ever open carry. When engaged in argument or debate the use of "Always" and "Never" will favor your opponent since they need only a single exception to disprove or undermine your position. Certainly we could look to the records from Alaska, Arizona or Vermont to see if they have ever had a single recorded incidence of a felon who engaged in open carry. While I admit the surprise would be a pleasant one for OC advocates in Wisconsin, I would be very surprised indeed if they haven't had a single recorded event of a felon engaged in open carry.

  19. #19
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    It goes without saying there are no absolutes.

    If radio programs lasted hours and the point was to philosophize and brainstorm hypotheticals you could offer a countless number of possible scenario's along with an in-depth discussion of the likely hood (or lack there-of) and ramifications of each hypothetical.

    I don't go on radio programs to brainstorm, nor discuss anomalies but to deliver a direct and unequivocal message that is based on the reality and logic that supports our message.

    To give "equal time" to the suggestion that criminals could hypothetically open-carry next to the reality that there is no evidence or logic for them to do so (quite the contrary) would not support an accurate message.

    I'll leave the perpetuation of myth and offerings of illogical scenario's to the anti's.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    I don't go on radio programs to brainstorm, nor discuss anomalies but to deliver a direct and unequivocal message that is based on the reality and logic that supports our message.
    I fully agree with Nik. The direct and unequivocal message in the criminology and law enforcement literature about the way criminals carry is clear. The fact that criminals never carry properly holstered handguns in the open in public is a settled matter of fact in criminology and law enforcement literature.

    One of the most well-known FBI studies is "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers". The quotes below are from that.

    Firearm Concealment and Storage

    In the current study, when asked to identify their method of carrying a handgun on their person . . .
    As I indicated with bold type, this section about criminals carrying a handgun even begins with the fact that nothing other than concealed carry by criminals happens.

    Traits of Armed Individuals

    . . . firearms, specifically handguns, are the weapon of choice for offenders . . . In fact, numerous incidents occurred where the offenders produced handguns and caught the officers unaware.
    As I indicated in bold, this literature reinforces the fact that criminals never open carry. They produce handguns from concealment and catch their victims unaware. That is the way criminals do it. Period.

    Later in the same section:

    After reflecting on the hundreds of law enforcement felonious deaths and assault incidents that they had examined, the investigators . . . decided to include some suggestions to help law enforcement officers improve their skills in detecting firearms . . .
    As I indicate in bold, the weight of law enforcement documentation of criminals is that they ONLY conceal handguns (until the moment of committing crime, of course), which necessitates skill in detecting firearms on criminals. BECAUSE CRIMINALS NEVER OPEN CARRY HANDGUNS.

    In the context Nik and other participants in the open carry movement have consistently used it, "open carry" means wear of a properly holstered handgun visible to public view at all times. Criminals, including felons, never do this.
    Last edited by DanM; 10-07-2010 at 11:14 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  21. #21
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    When engaged in argument or debate the use of "Always" and "Never" will favor your opponent since they need only a single exception to disprove or undermine your position.
    Did you just suggest that people should "never" use the word "never"?

    I will say that in the academic "debate" sense, this is "generally" true. Your statement is "almost" always correct.

    If in the next week, ONE criminal open-carries into a bank and holds it up, my statement "never" was wrong. BUT as far as the movement of open-carry is concerned, I think even that would support the efficacy of open-carry. I don't care if I'm proven wrong with my word choice of ONE word, when being proven wrong actually supports the larger issue.

    I WISH Joy would have challenged my use of "never" because it would give me even more opportunity to delve into the logic of open-carry.

    If a criminal went into a bank with a concealed weapon, waited in line, whipped it out when he got to the teller and held up the bank, would you rather that criminal had gone in the bank with a concealed handgun or an open-carried one?

    If someone has a gun, law-abiding OR criminal, wouldn't you prefer to know it?

    It makes no sense a criminal would open-carry. It would attract unwanted attention. Why would a criminal take the chance a cop who knows them to be a felon would see them and have instant PC to make an arrest, perhaps their neighbor or someone on their block who knows them to be a felon would see them and call police on them and again, instant RAS to make a stop.

    IF a criminal was dumb enough to carry their gun openly (which again, there is no evidence they do or logic why they ever would), isn't that a GOOD thing?

    I wish my use of "never" had baited Joy into challenging me on it. Oh well.

    One last comment, I still laugh at the comment the officer made to one of the Madison 5 that day about why a felon would open-carry. "Because they could sneak up on people"....

    Yeah.. because its easier to sneak up on people when you are OC'ing, because its easier to catch people oblivious when you have a gun on your hip, then it would be when you appear to have no gun at all...

    So, knowing very well media reads this forum daily, on my next radio interview I am eager for anyone to challenge me on air if I say "criminals never open carry" if you do, I'll ask you to provide me an example of them doing so OR the logic of why they would. I am confident I can provide a stronger counterpoint with regard to the logic, and if they can actually provide an example, I'm also pretty confident that if a criminal is going to commit a gun crime, it is better if they open-carry to do so than conceal carry.
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 10-07-2010 at 11:55 AM.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    So, knowing very well media reads this forum daily, on my next radio interview I am eager for anyone to challenge me on air if I say "criminals never open carry" if you do, I'll ask you to provide me an example of them doing so OR the logic of why they would. I am confident I can provide a stronger counterpoint with regard to the logic, and if they can actually provide an example, I'm also pretty confident that if a criminal is going to commit a gun crime, it is better if they open-carry to do so than conceal carry.
    Billy the Kid, Jesse James, or is that to far back?

  23. #23
    XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    I'm also pretty confident that if a criminal is going to commit a gun crime, it is better if they open-carry to do so than conceal carry.
    ummm..... I'm just going to assume you did not intend it to come out that way.
    I would also like to state I am not against you by any means, I think your a great spokesmen and I'm not sure anyone could do a better job then you, keep up the great work.
    Last edited by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX; 10-07-2010 at 04:55 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX View Post
    ummm..... I'm just going to assume you did not intend it to come out that way.
    I would also like to state I am not against you by any means, I think your a great spokesmen and I'm not sure anyone could do a better job then you, keep up the great work.
    If law abiding people want to conceal carry, I support their doing so. They intend no harm to anyone other than a criminal. Of course, conceal carry is generally prohibited right now, so I don't advocate that anyone break the law.

    There are thousands of felons walking all around Milwaukee conceal carrying as we speak. I wish every one of them would open-carry their gun. I know the police in Milwaukee are very familiar with the area's they work. They know who the criminals are. If the criminals who are currently walking around conceal carrying decided (stupidly) to open-carry we'd get thousands of thugs off the street and in jail on "felon with a gun" charges immediately.

    If you were in a bank that was going to be held up, would you want to know if the thug walking in had a gun on him? or would you prefer he had it hidden from you until the second he was ready to use it?

    I have heard lots of cops that are against carry who say that they don't support OC or CC but IF they had a choice they'd prefer people OC so they always knew what they were facing.

    Now of course, logically, it makes no sense a criminal would open-carry. It makes NO sense a criminal would wear a gun on his hip that would draw attention from everyone from cops to citizens to security guards, etc.

    This argument is now cyclical, I will make that my last comment.
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    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    Did you just suggest that people should "never" use the word "never"?

    I will say that in the academic "debate" sense, this is "generally" true. Your statement is "almost" always correct.

    If in the next week, ONE criminal open-carries into a bank and holds it up, my statement "never" was wrong. BUT as far as the movement of open-carry is concerned, I think even that would support the efficacy of open-carry. I don't care if I'm proven wrong with my word choice of ONE word, when being proven wrong actually supports the larger issue.

    I WISH Joy would have challenged my use of "never" because it would give me even more opportunity to delve into the logic of open-carry.

    If a criminal went into a bank with a concealed weapon, waited in line, whipped it out when he got to the teller and held up the bank, would you rather that criminal had gone in the bank with a concealed handgun or an open-carried one?

    If someone has a gun, law-abiding OR criminal, wouldn't you prefer to know it?

    It makes no sense a criminal would open-carry. It would attract unwanted attention. Why would a criminal take the chance a cop who knows them to be a felon would see them and have instant PC to make an arrest, perhaps their neighbor or someone on their block who knows them to be a felon would see them and call police on them and again, instant RAS to make a stop.

    IF a criminal was dumb enough to carry their gun openly (which again, there is no evidence they do or logic why they ever would), isn't that a GOOD thing?

    I wish my use of "never" had baited Joy into challenging me on it. Oh well.

    One last comment, I still laugh at the comment the officer made to one of the Madison 5 that day about why a felon would open-carry. "Because they could sneak up on people"....

    Yeah.. because its easier to sneak up on people when you are OC'ing, because its easier to catch people oblivious when you have a gun on your hip, then it would be when you appear to have no gun at all...

    So, knowing very well media reads this forum daily, on my next radio interview I am eager for anyone to challenge me on air if I say "criminals never open carry" if you do, I'll ask you to provide me an example of them doing so OR the logic of why they would. I am confident I can provide a stronger counterpoint with regard to the logic, and if they can actually provide an example, I'm also pretty confident that if a criminal is going to commit a gun crime, it is better if they open-carry to do so than conceal carry.
    Nik - Admittedly my concern is due, in part, to footage of Sarah Palin that made some circuits right after the BP oil rig disaster. The footage was of her chanting "Drill Baby Drill!" In a sound byte society this can be an issue and I want our cause and our momentum to remain strong. At least in my little corner of the world, it doesn't look like Mr. Murphy favors 2A proponents over the general populace! Also, while most of the people reading this post see the logic in felons not engaging in OC, some crooks who are smarter than others and the "dumb crook" awards wouldn't exist if there weren't a number of highly-qualified nominees.

    I don't believe the radio show needs to be long or philosophical to avoid the use of "never". In your post I think you make a number of short, excellent points that support your position quite well. Speaking only for myself, "Never" didn't pull me into your presentation but several of the points you made in this post caused me to stop for a second and say, "which would I prefer?" and "which scenario is safer for me and others around me?"

    No golden nuggets of wisdom, just my $.02. YMMV
    Last edited by scm54449; 10-07-2010 at 08:01 PM.

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