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Thread: Open Carriers to take Illegal ordinances to Lansing city council tonight!

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Open Carriers to take Illegal ordinances to Lansing city council tonight!

    Lansing City Council
    10th Floor - City Hall
    124 W. Michigan Ave
    Lansing , MI 48933

    7 PM tonight!

    BE ADVISED,THIS IS BUILDING HOUSES A COURT,YOU MAY NOT CARRY HERE

    This is concerning these ordinances.

    696.02. Carrying weapons in public places. No person shall carry any firearm, air rifle, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow or other dangerous weapon in any public place, subject to the following exceptions:

    (a) When it is in a case and is not loaded;

    (b) In the case of a bow or crossbow, when it is unstrung or encased, or when it is being carried under the direct supervision of authorized public recreational personnel; or

    (c) Where and as otherwise permitted by State law.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)



    696.03. Transportation of firearms in motor vehicles. No person shall transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle a firearm, unless the firearm is unloaded and is one or more of the following:

    (a) Taken down;

    (b) Enclosed in a case;

    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle; and/or

    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)


    696.05. Weapons on college campuses and buildings. No regularly enrolled student, guest or other person shall have in his or her possession on any college campus or in any college building, either concealed or not concealed, any rifle, shotgun, revolver, knife, fire bomb, explosive or any other dangerous weapon or ordnance.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)




    696.06. Machines dispensing ammunition or explosives. No person shall display for public patronage or keep for operation any machine or device which dispenses or vends cartridges, bullets, shotgun shells or similar articles of an explosive nature and capable of being used in firearms.
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 10-04-2010 at 02:51 PM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  2. #2
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    Where did you hear about this ordinance?

    Is this a Lansing ordinance, other city/township ordinance, or state law?

    Is this something new that is trying to be passed or something that is already on the books?

    More detail please.

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    Where did you hear about this ordinance?

    Is this a Lansing ordinance, other city/township ordinance, or state law?

    Is this something new that is trying to be passed or something that is already on the books?

    More detail please.
    Tyler has discussed these here several times. They are Lansing City ordinances that have been on the books for some years.

    He has attempted letters and emails and they have not responded.

    Now he and possibly several others will bring it to the City Councils attention in an open meeting.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    http://council.cityoflansingmi.com/A...da20101004.pdf

    Could find anything on the agenda regarding this matter. Again, more detail please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Tyler has discussed these here several times. They are Lansing City ordinances that have been on the books for some years.

    He has attempted letters and emails and they have not responded.

    Now he and possibly several others will bring it to the City Councils attention in an open meeting.
    Thanks for the update Auto!

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    http://council.cityoflansingmi.com/A...da20101004.pdf

    Could find anything on the agenda regarding this matter. Again, more detail please.
    It's not on the agenda. I'll be speaking during public comments during the legislative matters portion.

    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...p?topic=603.15
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Nothing like SHORT NOTICE.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    Lansing City Council
    10th Floor - City Hall
    124 W. Michigan Ave
    Lansing , MI 48933

    7 PM tonight!

    BE ADVISED,THIS IS BUILDING HOUSES A COURT,YOU MAY NOT CARRY HERE

    This is concerning these ordinances.

    696.02. Carrying weapons in public places. No person shall carry any firearm, air rifle, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow or other dangerous weapon in any public place, subject to the following exceptions:

    (a) When it is in a case and is not loaded;

    (b) In the case of a bow or crossbow, when it is unstrung or encased, or when it is being carried under the direct supervision of authorized public recreational personnel; or

    (c) Where and as otherwise permitted by State law.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)



    696.03. Transportation of firearms in motor vehicles. No person shall transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle a firearm, unless the firearm is unloaded and is one or more of the following:

    (a) Taken down;

    (b) Enclosed in a case;

    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle; and/or

    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)


    696.05. Weapons on college campuses and buildings. No regularly enrolled student, guest or other person shall have in his or her possession on any college campus or in any college building, either concealed or not concealed, any rifle, shotgun, revolver, knife, fire bomb, explosive or any other dangerous weapon or ordnance.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)




    696.06. Machines dispensing ammunition or explosives. No person shall display for public patronage or keep for operation any machine or device which dispenses or vends cartridges, bullets, shotgun shells or similar articles of an explosive nature and capable of being used in firearms.
    It would appear that 696.02 is not illegal because of the exception noted in (c).
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    It would appear that 696.02 is not illegal because of the exception noted in (c).
    I will be noting that in my statement. A copy of my statement is on the link referenced.

    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/...p?topic=603.15
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    Nothing like SHORT NOTICE.
    I gave notice of our intentions on MOC's forum in a public area of the forum on Sept. 28.

    You might want to drop in there now and then. I wouldn't be surprised if there were follow up meetings in the future. Meetings are every Monday night (unless Monday is a city holiday).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Good luck!

    Next time, post it here and also on MGO, the more people that know the better....don't you agree?

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    Good luck!

    Next time, post it here and also on MGO, the more people that know the better....don't you agree?
    That could be the sledge hammer. We might get it done (ha ha) between the two of us. We can always regroup and reload with a larger group.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    Nothing like SHORT NOTICE.
    +1

    Yep - more notice = more people there. I would have tried to make just so I could of asked Virg on the record why he is anti 2A & listen to his butt pucker

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    From OP:

    " Open Carriers to take Illegal ordinances to Lansing city council tonight!

    Lansing City Council
    10th Floor - City Hall
    124 W. Michigan Ave
    Lansing , MI 48933

    7 PM tonight!

    BE ADVISED,THIS IS BUILDING HOUSES A COURT,YOU MAY NOT CARRY HERE"

    Well, at least their putting houses together, instead of just sitting on their a$$es.

    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 10-04-2010 at 04:44 PM. Reason: just razzing you Tyler ;)

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    "Where and as otherwise permitted by State law"

    This type of wording concerns me. I am not 'permitted by State law' to wear underwear, there is however, no law that prevents me from doing so.

    There is no law in Michigan that 'permits' me to open carry, there just happens to be no law against it.

    Good Luck, keep us posted, went throught to same thing in my Township and it wasn't until I called them (actually it was the Supervisor) out publicly about the ILLEGAL ordinance and that they were CONTINUING TO BREAK STATE LAW (this after nine months of emails, phone calls) that something changed.

    Carry on
    Last edited by jmlefler; 10-04-2010 at 05:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    Lansing City Council
    10th Floor - City Hall
    124 W. Michigan Ave
    Lansing , MI 48933

    7 PM tonight!

    BE ADVISED,THIS IS BUILDING HOUSES A COURT,YOU MAY NOT CARRY HERE

    This is concerning these ordinances.

    696.02. Carrying weapons in public places. No person shall carry any firearm, air rifle, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow or other dangerous weapon in any public place, subject to the following exceptions:

    (a) When it is in a case and is not loaded;

    (b) In the case of a bow or crossbow, when it is unstrung or encased, or when it is being carried under the direct supervision of authorized public recreational personnel; or

    (c) Where and as otherwise permitted by State law.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)



    696.03. Transportation of firearms in motor vehicles. No person shall transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle a firearm, unless the firearm is unloaded and is one or more of the following:

    (a) Taken down;

    (b) Enclosed in a case;

    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle; and/or

    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)


    696.05. Weapons on college campuses and buildings. No regularly enrolled student, guest or other person shall have in his or her possession on any college campus or in any college building, either concealed or not concealed, any rifle, shotgun, revolver, knife, fire bomb, explosive or any other dangerous weapon or ordnance.

    (Ord. No. 739, 12-22-86)




    696.06. Machines dispensing ammunition or explosives. No person shall display for public patronage or keep for operation any machine or device which dispenses or vends cartridges, bullets, shotgun shells or similar articles of an explosive nature and capable of being used in firearms.
    I believe that unless a sign with a specific language posted at the entrance, it can not be legally considered a Court House facility.

  17. #17
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Oh it has a sign Tyler and I have posted about it here several times... as have others.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Oh it has a sign Tyler and I have posted about it here several times... as have others.
    The door man tells me there's public access to the PD on the 6th floor.

    I'll verify this myself sometimes.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I have no problem with only the two citizens bringing this to the council. Sometimes, if a large group shows up as the first visit, it may cause the council to feel "bullied" so they dig in there heels. Lets see what their response is then ramp up the effort if need be.

  20. #20
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    they're response was that they are not going to change or modify the ordinances and wont even look into it,the council was very inattentive and rude to many if not all of the speakers.

    Me and TheQ did meet a guy with a cpl interested in OC though,so there was some good that became of the night
    Whos interested in going as a larger group next time?
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    they're response was that they are not going to change or modify the ordinances and wont even look into it,the council was very inattentive and rude to many if not all of the speakers.

    Me and TheQ did meet a guy with a cpl interested in OC though,so there was some good that became of the night
    Whos interested in going as a larger group next time?
    We even met with my ward rep on the side along with the City Attorney afterward. Both of them didn't care much if the city got sued because a new cop on the beat didn't get the memo not to enforce the law -- "that's why we have liability insurance".
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I have no problem with only the two citizens bringing this to the council. Sometimes, if a large group shows up as the first visit, it may cause the council to feel "bullied" so they dig in there heels. Lets see what their response is then ramp up the effort if need be.
    I would say its time to ramp things up. If other cities are watching and see that lansing can just say screw off and get a way with it they will too.

    It makes me so mad that there isn't a state law that cities/townships have to make their ordinances comply with state law once notified of them being in conflict. They should be obligated to change it once it has been brought to their attention.

  23. #23
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    I would say its time to ramp things up. If other cities are watching and see that lansing can just say screw off and get a way with it they will too.

    It makes me so mad that there isn't a state law that cities/townships have to make their ordinances comply with state law once notified of them being in conflict. They should be obligated to change it once it has been brought to their attention.
    What would they care? They would just break and ignore that one too wouldn't they?
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    We even met with my ward rep on the side along with the City Attorney afterward. Both of them didn't care much if the city got sued because a new cop on the beat didn't get the memo not to enforce the law -- "that's why we have liability insurance".
    Did you get that on tape? Turn to the media - it's usually a great story. List all the other cities, townships and counties that have changed their ordinances. Call the AG and let them know of the violations, they are violating Michigan State Law.

    Just for kicks... sounds like willful neglect to me...

    750.478 Willful neglect of duty; public officer or person holding public trust or employment;
    penalty.
    Sec. 478. When any duty is or shall be enjoined by law upon any public officer, or upon any person
    holding any public trust or employment, every willful neglect to perform such duty, where no special
    provision shall have been made for the punishment of such delinquency, constitutes a misdemeanor
    punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00.

    By not following Michigan Law, they have violated the public trust.

    Carry on
    Last edited by jmlefler; 10-05-2010 at 08:29 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    Did you get that on tape? Turn to the media - it's usually a great story. List all the other cities, townships and counties that have changed their ordinances. Call the AG and let them know of the violations, they are violating Michigan State Law.

    Just for kicks... sounds like willful neglect to me...

    750.478 Willful neglect of duty; public officer or person holding public trust or employment;
    penalty.
    Sec. 478. When any duty is or shall be enjoined by law upon any public officer, or upon any person
    holding any public trust or employment, every willful neglect to perform such duty, where no special
    provision shall have been made for the punishment of such delinquency, constitutes a misdemeanor
    punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00.

    By not following Michigan Law, they have violated the public trust.

    Carry on
    Lansing Public TV recorded the session. It will be uploaded to their site soon. I will post the link and time slot within the video here when it's posted. If someone knows how to extract the clip and upload it to YouTube -- great.

    And no, the side talk wasn't recorded.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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