Open Carriers to take Illegal ordinances to Lansing city council tonight!

TheQ · Oct 4, 2010

lil_freak_66 said:
they're response was that they are not going to change or modify the ordinances and wont even look into it,the council was very inattentive and rude to many if not all of the speakers.

Me and TheQ did meet a guy with a cpl interested in OC though,so there was some good that became of the night
Whos interested in going as a larger group next time?

We even met with my ward rep on the side along with the City Attorney afterward. Both of them didn't care much if the city got sued because a new cop on the beat didn't get the memo not to enforce the law -- "that's why we have liability insurance".

detroit_fan · Oct 4, 2010

scot623 said:
I have no problem with only the two citizens bringing this to the council. Sometimes, if a large group shows up as the first visit, it may cause the council to feel "bullied" so they dig in there heels. Lets see what their response is then ramp up the effort if need be.

I would say its time to ramp things up. If other cities are watching and see that lansing can just say screw off and get a way with it they will too.

It makes me so mad that there isn't a state law that cities/townships have to make their ordinances comply with state law once notified of them being in conflict. They should be obligated to change it once it has been brought to their attention.

eastmeyers · Oct 5, 2010

detroit_fan said:
I would say its time to ramp things up. If other cities are watching and see that lansing can just say screw off and get a way with it they will too.

It makes me so mad that there isn't a state law that cities/townships have to make their ordinances comply with state law once notified of them being in conflict. They should be obligated to change it once it has been brought to their attention.

What would they care? They would just break and ignore that one too wouldn't they? :question::question::question::question:

jmlefler · Oct 5, 2010

TheQ said:
We even met with my ward rep on the side along with the City Attorney afterward. Both of them didn't care much if the city got sued because a new cop on the beat didn't get the memo not to enforce the law -- "that's why we have liability insurance".

Did you get that on tape? Turn to the media - it's usually a great story. List all the other cities, townships and counties that have changed their ordinances. Call the AG and let them know of the violations, they are violating Michigan State Law.

Just for kicks... sounds like willful neglect to me...

750.478 Willful neglect of duty; public officer or person holding public trust or employment;
penalty.
Sec. 478. When any duty is or shall be enjoined by law upon any public officer, or upon any person
holding any public trust or employment, every willful neglect to perform such duty, where no special
provision shall have been made for the punishment of such delinquency, constitutes a misdemeanor
punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00.

By not following Michigan Law, they have violated the public trust.

Carry on

TheQ · Oct 5, 2010

jmlefler said:
Did you get that on tape? Turn to the media - it's usually a great story. List all the other cities, townships and counties that have changed their ordinances. Call the AG and let them know of the violations, they are violating Michigan State Law.

Just for kicks... sounds like willful neglect to me...

750.478 Willful neglect of duty; public officer or person holding public trust or employment;
penalty.
Sec. 478. When any duty is or shall be enjoined by law upon any public officer, or upon any person
holding any public trust or employment, every willful neglect to perform such duty, where no special
provision shall have been made for the punishment of such delinquency, constitutes a misdemeanor
punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00.

By not following Michigan Law, they have violated the public trust.

Carry on

Lansing Public TV recorded the session. It will be uploaded to their site soon. I will post the link and time slot within the video here when it's posted. If someone knows how to extract the clip and upload it to YouTube -- great.

And no, the side talk wasn't recorded.

DrTodd · Oct 5, 2010

jmlefler said:
750.478 Willful neglect of duty; public officer or person holding public trust or employment;
penalty.
Sec. 478. When any duty is or shall be enjoined by law upon any public officer, or upon any person
holding any public trust or employment, every willful neglect to perform such duty, where no special
provision shall have been made for the punishment of such delinquency, constitutes a misdemeanor
punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00.

Nice citation... I'm sure I can find a use for this

DanM · Oct 5, 2010

lil_freak_66 said:
they're response was that they are not going to change or modify the ordinances and wont even look into it,the council was very inattentive and rude to many if not all of the speakers.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. Gandhi

Ah, Gandhi was a very wise man full of foresight, wasn't he? This pattern has played out in many places, including Royal Oak. I have created a corollary quote to Gandhi's, which I would like to share as advice:

"Be persistent as they ignore you, be self-confident as they ridicule you, be strong as they fight you, then be gracious and forgiving when you win." --Dan Meadows' corollary to M. Gandhi

autosurgeon · Oct 5, 2010

I like that Dan!

PDinDetroit · Oct 5, 2010

DanM said:
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. Gandhi

Ah, Gandhi was a very wise man full of foresight, wasn't he? This pattern has played out in many places, including Royal Oak. I have created a corollary quote to Gandhi's, which I would like to share as advice:

"Be persistent as they ignore you, be self-confident as they ridicule you, be strong as they fight you, then be gracious and forgiving when you win." --Dan Meadows' corollary to M. Gandhi

And smile like the Cheshire Cat inside...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Cat

detroit_fan · Oct 5, 2010

TheQ said:
And no, the side talk wasn't recorded.

Too bad, it would probably have been useful if this goes to the media.

TheQ · Oct 5, 2010

jmlefler · Oct 5, 2010

TheQ said:
.

No can do. Really, collect a list of municipalites that have changed their regs recently. These guys are like sheep, they like to do what the herd is doing.

Kalamazoo Township, 2009, Kalamazoo County 2009, Texas Township 2009, Taylor Michigan 2009. I'm sure others will post as well...

Good luck!

jmlefler · Oct 5, 2010

DrTodd said:
Nice citation... I'm sure I can find a use for this

Note it is for 'every' violation.

Carry on

jmlefler · Oct 5, 2010

This was useful in my successful bid to have such ordinances removed. It's from the Michigan Municipal League, an organization to which municipalities in Michigan belong.

http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2009_04.pdf

Note on the cover "Open Carry Is a constitutional right when done in accordance with the law".

From page 3 - and this is the Law Enforcement Action Forum of the MML speaking:
"In Michigan, individual governmental entities are restricted from passing ordinances that regulate
firearms more than the federal or state laws do. The Michigan Court of Appeals ruled in MCRGO v
Ferndale, 256 Mich. App. 401, (2003) that an ordinance passed by the City of Ferndale prohibiting the possession or concealment of weapons in all buildings owned or controlled by the City was invalid. The Court ruled that MCL 123.1102 barred local units of government from enacting and enforcing ordinances that make local public
buildings gun-free zones." It's their own peeps sayin' so!

The next section is entitled "GET OVER THE OUTRAGE...

Blind 'em with science...

Carry on

Glock9mmOldStyle · Oct 5, 2010

Let's give'em something to think about (If they do think from time to time)?

lil_freak_66 said:
they're response was that they are not going to change or modify the ordinances and wont even look into it,the council was very inattentive and rude to many if not all of the speakers.

Me and TheQ did meet a guy with a cpl interested in OC though,so there was some good that became of the night
Whos interested in going as a larger group next time?

With plenty of notice....I'm in (empty holster & all)! Damn politicians! I have been known to be able to chuck a 9mm by hand @ 90+ mph!! (wink, wink).

sprinklerguy28 · Oct 5, 2010

Keep in mind nothing in the law says they have to remove old ordinances. Also you have Virg Bernero running for governor. He will insure nothing is done prior to the elections. An organized effort will have its biggest impact after the general elections take place. It's not right but it is the way the political system works.

Bikenut · Oct 5, 2010

sprinklerguy28 said:
Keep in mind nothing in the law says they have to remove old ordinances. Also you have Virg Bernero running for governor. He will insure nothing is done prior to the elections. An organized effort will have its biggest impact after the general elections take place. It's not right but it is the way the political system works.

Most folks consider ... enforcement... to involve an LEO interaction or a court order. But that isn't necessarily true.

An argument can be made that removing/rewording ordinances is required under the:

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance....snip.........

or enforce portion of MCL 123.1102 since, as long as the illegal ordinance is on the books available to be read by a citizen, once a citizen who isn't familiar with MCL 123.1102 reads that ordinance and believes it to be legal and adjusts his/her behavior to comply with said ordinance..... it was just enforced.... simply by it's mere presence.

T Vance · Oct 5, 2010

enact (ɪnˈækt)

— vb
1. to make into an act or statute
2. to establish by law; ordain or decree
3. to represent or perform in or as if in a play; to act out

DKSuddeth · Oct 6, 2010

TheQ said:
We even met with my ward rep on the side along with the City Attorney afterward. Both of them didn't care much if the city got sued because a new cop on the beat didn't get the memo not to enforce the law -- "that's why we have liability insurance".

this is why you should find over a hundred people to violate this illegal ordnance and then file over a hundred lawsuits. make it so that the city cannot get insurance.

TheQ · Oct 6, 2010

DKSuddeth said:
this is why you should find over a hundred people to violate this illegal ordnance and then file over a hundred lawsuits. make it so that the city cannot get insurance.

Won't work. Since Ponderosa they have been pretty good at non-enforcement.

Open Carriers to take Illegal ordinances to Lansing city council tonight!

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