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Thread: Qustion on A.G. opinion #7101

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    Qustion on A.G. opinion #7101

    I know this has been talked about before but when I read this, its talking about police and peace officers. How does this Opinion work for me as I am nether? If someone could clear this up for me as I am kinda confused.

    I am also fighting my lawyer on this because I wanted to test my new lawyer on how good he knows the laws. I asked him if its legal in michigan to OC and if so give me some laws on it, as he said I can not OC in michigan and it would be brandishing. I'm so mad at him right now that I made a complaint on giving false information to me on the matter.
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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.


    The part in bold is what relates to non LEOs. This statement means it applies to any non LEO as well.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    I know this has been talked about before but when I read this, its talking about police and peace officers. How does this Opinion work for me as I am nether? If someone could clear this up for me as I am kinda confused.

    I am also fighting my lawyer on this because I wanted to test my new lawyer on how good he knows the laws. I asked him if its legal in michigan to OC and if so give me some laws on it, as he said I can not OC in michigan and it would be brandishing. I'm so mad at him right now that I made a complaint on giving false information to me on the matter.
    He sucks! I suggest you tell him the following:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDA4l...eature=related

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    Also, how the same conduct possessing holstered firearm can be not brandishing for one group of people (LEOs) and brandishing for others?

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    Angry My lawyer is Fired!!!!!

    ok this is where I am at. again please anyone help me out!!! I talked to another lawyer today for a second time about OC. I asked if its legal in the state of michigan to OC. She said yes but the law is all broken up. I can OC but the police can arrest me for anything (I know that) but even if i'm legally OC she said I could get arrested for disturbing the peace, MWAG, possession of a weapon / deadly weapon or anything and that NO one in michigan has won any cases of being illegally detained or arrested because of OC. She said that being detained is being arrested and that they can detain you for OC a firearm, I said to her that I thought being detained is when police are investigating that you are about to commit a crime, you have commit a crime or a crime is in progress, she said NO your arrested.

    My question is can they arrest you for Legally OC but under a different crime if the sole bases of the arrest OC related but again, MWAG, disturbing the peace, complaint that they are scared because you have a gun ect ect. How do I know I can win in court and with what lawyer is going to back me up on this? Is there a law that says they can't charge you with a crime for doing something thats legal? DO NOT GET PRE PAID LEGAL SERVICE FOR ANY TYPE OF OC FOR A LAWYER!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    ok this is where I am at. again please anyone help me out!!! I talked to another lawyer today for a second time about OC. I asked if its legal in the state of michigan to OC. She said yes but the law is all broken up. I can OC but the police can arrest me for anything (I know that) but even if i'm legally OC she said I could get arrested for disturbing the peace, MWAG, possession of a weapon / deadly weapon or anything and that NO one in michigan has won any cases of being illegally detained or arrested because of OC. She said that being detained is being arrested and that they can detain you for OC a firearm, I said to her that I thought being detained is when police are investigating that you are about to commit a crime, you have commit a crime or a crime is in progress, she said NO your arrested.

    My question is can they arrest you for Legally OC but under a different crime if the sole bases of the arrest OC related but again, MWAG, disturbing the peace, complaint that they are scared because you have a gun ect ect. How do I know I can win in court and with what lawyer is going to back me up on this? Is there a law that says they can't charge you with a crime for doing something thats legal? DO NOT GET PRE PAID LEGAL SERVICE FOR ANY TYPE OF OC FOR A LAWYER!!!!

    Forgot to put in here that she said if you have a CPL you can conceal or OC and they can't charge you for any crime because its legal.... WTF?? Anyone know a good lawyer that knows his stuff that I can trust and talk to?? Thanks. Also the company I was dealing with was Powers Chapman DeAgostino, I think they are in Troy area.
    Last edited by jasonman17; 10-04-2010 at 07:10 PM.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    ok this is where I am at. again please anyone help me out!!! I talked to another lawyer today for a second time about OC. I asked if its legal in the state of michigan to OC. She said yes but the law is all broken up. I can OC but the police can arrest me for anything (I know that) but even if i'm legally OC she said I could get arrested for disturbing the peace, MWAG, possession of a weapon / deadly weapon or anything and that NO one in michigan has won any cases of being illegally detained or arrested because of OC. She said that being detained is being arrested and that they can detain you for OC a firearm, I said to her that I thought being detained is when police are investigating that you are about to commit a crime, you have commit a crime or a crime is in progress, she said NO your arrested.

    My question is can they arrest you for Legally OC but under a different crime if the sole bases of the arrest OC related but again, MWAG, disturbing the peace, complaint that they are scared because you have a gun ect ect. How do I know I can win in court and with what lawyer is going to back me up on this? Is there a law that says they can't charge you with a crime for doing something thats legal? DO NOT GET PRE PAID LEGAL SERVICE FOR ANY TYPE OF OC FOR A LAWYER!!!!
    No lawyer is going to tell you to go ahead and OC. If you get jacked up for some bogus charge then you can go after them for poor advice. Lawyers are always going to error on the side of caution.

    While it is true you can be arrested for anything, the practice has increased by leaps and bounds and we don't know of this happening in Michigan in the last three years.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No lawyer is going to tell you to go ahead and OC. If you get jacked up for some bogus charge then you can go after them for poor advice. Lawyers are always going to error on the side of caution.

    While it is true you can be arrested for anything, the practice has increased by leaps and bounds and we don't know of this happening in Michigan in the last three years.
    Don't know of what happening in mi in the past 3 years? Being arrested?
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No lawyer is going to tell you to go ahead and OC. If you get jacked up for some bogus charge then you can go after them for poor advice. Lawyers are always going to error on the side of caution.
    Some MAY be willing to tell you it appears that OC is legal... but then again, they DO tend to ERR on the side of caution...

    Seriously though, everything Venator said is true. In addition to what he said, what you will find is that most attorneys only know that part of the law which they tend to have considerable experience; remember, the whole notion of OC is relatively new (in Michigan). Most firearm violations that the courts and attorneys see are either "felon possessing a firearm" or "concealed carry" by unlicensed individuals. I have researched as much as I can and it just seems that most firearm legal issues get dealt with very early in the legal process; this is for both the aforementioned violations and OC. That being the case, most attorney's have a very meager understanding of the intricacies of the issues involved due to not having to really deal with OC regularly.

    I am not trying to absolve attorneys of their responsibility, though. But, like most people, they tend to do that which is "easiest"... and in the case of OC, it is "easiest" to list all of the worst-case scenarios one could face.

    BTW, in reply to your question regarding the AG opinion you mentioned, it would probably be helpful for you to know that "Reserve officers" DO NOT have general arrest authority in Michigan. In fact, they have no more inherent right to carry openly in a PFZ than you do. However, it is interesting that, since this opinion was promulgated, Reserve Officers have been added to the list of those "special" people who are exempt from the cc in a PFZ prohibition. As a person who was a reserve deputy in MI, I can honestly say that they have very little training (dependent on department) and the thought that they are somehow possessed of some special skill-set that should exempt them from the cc in PFZ prohibition, yet stops a general citizen w/ a cpl from doing likewise, is simply ludicrous.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    <snip>...we don't know of this happening in Michigan in the last three years.

    I don't mean to scare you, Jasonman17, it seems like every time I think this, I read about somebody being arrested. Anyone know whatever happened to that OCer at MSU... the one where the judge said to be exempt from the 750.234d prohibitions you needed to carry concealed?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Anyone know whatever happened to that OCer at MSU... the one where the judge said to be exempt from the 750.234d prohibitions you needed to carry concealed?
    Neverheard of this? Have a link to any previous posts mentioning it?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    Neverheard of this? Have a link to any previous posts mentioning it?
    See what happens when you blink here... you just may miss something... jk

    Here you go:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Stephen-Dulan)

    Let me add a quote: that the legislature must really mean that the only exception for CPL holders under MCL 750.234d must be when the CPL holder is carrying concealed and not openly. The court adopted this interpretation, even after being made aware that it is contrary to the relevant official opinion of the Attorney General and other commentators on this issue.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-04-2010 at 08:53 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No lawyer is going to tell you to go ahead and OC. If you get jacked up for some bogus charge then you can go after them for poor advice. Lawyers are always going to error on the side of caution.
    This is the most true statment I have read in a long time!
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    If you get jacked up for some bogus charge then you can go after them for poor advice.
    Don't bank on this, though. I was personally involved in non-OC situation in 2004 that had the OK of a local attorney, 2 DNR officers, the regional DNR enforcement officer, and a State Police Lieutenant and I was still charged and found guilty of violating state law (local PD and judge, non-OC matter). So, the lesson that my experience has taught me is that if "they" want to "get you", "they" can always find a way.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Give this gentleman a call, he knows gun laws, and shoots often. Atty Dean Greenblatt. 248 644 7520

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    Don't know of what happening in mi in the past 3 years? Being arrested?
    Of being arrested just for OC as in a DC charge. This has happened in the past, because of ignorance of the law, but as more people stand up for the right to OC these arrests have/will decline.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I don't mean to scare you, Jasonman17, it seems like every time I think this, I read about somebody being arrested. Anyone know whatever happened to that OCer at MSU... the one where the judge said to be exempt from the 750.234d prohibitions you needed to carry concealed?
    It's being appealed. And will most likely win there. It was a bogus charge and a misinformed judge. Always remember in courts there is no justice, just decisions.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Give this gentleman a call, he knows gun laws, and shoots often. Atty Dean Greenblatt. 248 644 7520


    could you tell me the company name of where he works?
    Only you can save are rights....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonman17 View Post
    could you tell me the company name of where he works?
    I may be mistaken, but I believe he is independent. He posts here occasionally.

    He is, as far as I can tell, the most quick witted and legally knowledgeable gun lawyer in Michigan. He has successfully won cases for a couple people here.

    He is one of the very few people I've met who I can honestly say knows more about the ins and outs of Michigan gun law than I do. I suggest to anyone in SE Michigan that he be the first lawyer to turn to in case of legal trouble with gun related issues.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Dean Greenblatt

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    It's being appealed. And will most likely win there. It was a bogus charge and a misinformed judge. Always remember in courts there is no justice, just decisions.
    Thank goodness. I hadn't heard anything lately and feared the worst. The judge totally misapplied the law to this gentleman's case and I hope it is something that can be taken care of quickly.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    He is one of the very few people I've met who I can honestly say knows more about the ins and outs of Michigan gun law than I do. I suggest to anyone in SE Michigan that he be the first lawyer to turn to in case of legal trouble with gun related issues.
    I live in central michigan, any ideas in my area?
    Only you can save are rights....

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I don't mean to scare you, Jasonman17, it seems like every time I think this, I read about somebody being arrested. Anyone know whatever happened to that OCer at MSU... the one where the judge said to be exempt from the 750.234d prohibitions you needed to carry concealed?
    I believe Steve Dulan is handling that case.He mentioned the particulars to me but I,ve forgoten them.
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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    AG opinion 7113 also covers this area and mentions MCL 750.234d & 237a.OCers with CPL's are exempt just as peace officers are in both case's,leading me to understand that an OCer with a CPL can go anywhere a peace officer can,except that private property rules and federal property permission rules. Ford field and other venues have LEO's who have been given permission and I believe federal property permits LEO's also.If we had permission to carry at Ford field or any venue,we would.
    Thats how I read it!
    Last edited by hamaneggs; 10-09-2010 at 01:30 PM.
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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    It's being appealed. And will most likely win there. It was a bogus charge and a misinformed judge. Always remember in courts there is no justice, just decisions.
    In my experience,whether lawyer or any others,they only know what they know! We are the educators!I believe our stickies have lists of pro-gun lawyers!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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