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Thread: Leo interactions

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    Leo interactions

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    Last edited by mik253; 10-23-2016 at 12:53 AM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    There's not really a law that says officers can't "stop and identify", in Washington there is NO law that says they CAN.

    There are court decisions that cover actions like this that say officers have to have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to detain a person.

    Some of those decisions that shed some light on this are:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_v._J.L.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_...ourt_of_Nevada

    Probably the closest to what you asked for is here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

    Which covers what the Stop and Identify Statutes are, which states have them, and some more detail as to what is required.

    Have fun reading.
    Last edited by amlevin; 10-04-2010 at 06:31 PM.
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    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Has some Michigan specifics, but still a good resource:

    http://firearmowners.com/index.php/l...h-rinse-repeat

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Quotes

    I copied this from some where else on the forum:
    Here are some quotes from US vs Mendenhall:

    We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. (bold emphasis by Citizen)
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    I have thought of going one step fuurther and making business cards that can be handed out to LEOs when they ask for ID. If you asked for ID from them that is what you would get.

    This card would have your real name on it along with a select and abbreviated version of what we usually tell them about our rights, illegal detainment and what not. Have to slim it down and keep it simple and to the point. Anyone want to help me with the abbreviated text??

    I will set up a downloadable template that can be printed via cutout business cards you can pick up at Office Depot, etc...

    Would be nice to have a more professional card with something like "Washington Carry, Inc." as an example.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mik253 View Post
    So I'm often going over in my head different scenarios about being stopped for OCing by LEOs and rehearing what I'd say such as the officer needing RAS, WA not being a stop and identify state but is any of this written down anywhere? I usually go through posts to pick up as much info as I can to deal with possible encounters and am very glad to have a place to learn these things but has anyone ever thought of typing out question's and answers with the law it pertains to for LEO interactions and making it a sticky? I would love to but I'm not quite knowledgeable enough, thoughts?
    This is a very good question, and not one limited to your state. I don't know the "right" answers to your questions, and am working on my own responses. One thing I have noticed, or maybe more importantly, not noticed, is attorney's advising us to educate law enforcement when they have us either detained or when they are attempting a consensual encounter.

    Most attorney's harp on us to politely stay with the "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" Arguing law with a cop is like trying to reason with a Moonie. You'll run out of air before they run out of counter points. Once "rights" are mentioned, a glaze comes over the eyes, and two thoughts along with tunnel vision enter the police cranium:

    1. "Must Dominate".
    In order to dominate, shooting [tricky, as few can actually hit what they shoot at], tasing, clubbing, kicking, assisted falling down stairs and slamming ankles in car doors top the list of means to achieve dominance, and the list goes down hill from here.

    2. "Feared for ma life".
    All and anything that is performed to accomplish dominance is covered under this handy catch phrase. Like an American Express Card, today's lawman doesn't leave home without it.

    No cop is going to approach me to insure my best interests are looked out for. I truly believe that unless my hand is in the cookie jar, he is approaching me on a fishing expedition. I have a responsibility to myself not to bite.

    So for me, there is a goal of avoiding voluntary interrogation and still not sounding like I'm a Moonie myself. "I prefer not to surrender any ID, and I don't consent to searches. Am I being detained?" The goal is limit the contact and be out of their grasp as quickly as possible. My experience with this type of presentation to a cop is to be hammered with more questions and / or interruptions. My focus, I believe, is to ignore that reaction from the police and stay POLITELY focused on gaining an answer to my question regarding my detainment. I have been told in response I am being detained for questioning. Anyone who ever watched a TV cop show knows the response to this one: "Questioning? I will need my attorney present for that." At this point, if they have something on you, or are manufacturing something [Mopery, with Intent to Creep], ****. Nothing you say or do will avoid the inevitable deposit of your glutimus maximus into the back seat of the patrol car. Sadly, we have the right to remain silent. The sad part is, few have the ability. Remaining silent in a non defiant manner will go farther towards getting out of that squad car than anything that could ever come out of your mouth. The back seat is a sweat box. A tool of interrogation. A fisherman's trick. Don't. Bite. If they have something, your going for a ride. If they don't, you may be getting out when they run out of "reasonable time." What comes out of your mouth will weigh on the side of going for a ride. They are not looking for reasons to let you out. They may just want to see you submit. To roll over on your back like a bitch dog. To recognize their supreme power. Like on Gangland. You are on their turf.

    **** 'em. I'm in for the ride at his point.

    This is where I need work, as I do have a tendency to exhibit defiance towards authority figures, and at this point it comes out in spades.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" If you are not being detained, then leave. Before backup is called (i.e. The Brewster incident). Say absolutely nothing and leave, either on foot or in your vehicle.

    "Am I being arrested?" Again, if no then leave.


    If the answer is 'yes' to either question then say nothing. Call your lawyer. Record the detainment/arrest.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" If you are not being detained, then leave. Before backup is called (i.e. The Brewster incident). Say absolutely nothing and leave, either on foot or in your vehicle.

    "Am I being arrested?" Again, if no then leave.


    If the answer is 'yes' to either question then say nothing. Call your lawyer. Record the detainment/arrest.
    That is good advice, I just wonder how things might have been different if Tom would have gotten up and went outside, esp since that is what the officers wanted him to do in the first place. I see LEO logic might have been, if he's outside, he is out of view of the starbucks cameras. That would have given them a chance to Cuff, disarm, run seriel numbers, and detain even longer.
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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" If you are not being detained, then leave. Before backup is called (i.e. The Brewster incident). Say absolutely nothing and leave, either on foot or in your vehicle.
    The problem with that it it is an undeniable "win" for them. Instead of sitting quietly and enjoying one's lattť and reading a book, or whatever, they have chased you out, forced you to change your activity, your plans, in response to their actions.

    Same thing terrorists try to do. (Not saying LEOs are terrorists, just that both use their actions to indirectly force you to change yours.)

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    ē ē ē Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciťmus!ē ē ē

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post

    Same thing terrorists try to do. (Not saying LEOs are terrorists, just that both use their actions to indirectly force you to change yours.)
    Yet they continually to use fear like tactics in try to force you to cooperate.

    We shouldn't have to leave because of harassment. I am determined not to "co-operate" with any unlawful orders. And will openly state loud enough for others to hear "Stop Harassing Me!!!!"

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    And will openly state loud enough for others to hear "Stop Harassing Me!!!!"
    Enter 'behaving strangely' and 'disorderly conduct'....


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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" If you are not being detained, then leave. Before backup is called (i.e. The Brewster incident). Say absolutely nothing and leave, either on foot or in your vehicle.

    "Am I being arrested?" Again, if no then leave.


    If the answer is 'yes' to either question then say nothing. Call your lawyer. Record the detainment/arrest.
    That.

    If you're somewhere that you don't want to leave and not being detained, then stay and refuse to answer ANY questions. Don't argue, don't hand out cards or pamphlets, and don't debate. Be polite but be firm. Your (silent) attitude should be that wearing a sidearm is no different than wearing a watch. The police KNOW it's legal. You are not going to change their opinion.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" If you are not being detained, then leave. Before backup is called (i.e. The Brewster incident). Say absolutely nothing and leave, either on foot or in your vehicle.

    "Am I being arrested?" Again, if no then leave.


    If the answer is 'yes' to either question then say nothing. Call your lawyer. Record the detainment/arrest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    That.

    If you're somewhere that you don't want to leave and not being detained, then stay and refuse to answer ANY questions. Don't argue, don't hand out cards or pamphlets, and don't debate. Be polite but be firm. Your (silent) attitude should be that wearing a sidearm is no different than wearing a watch. The police KNOW it's legal. You are not going to change their opinion.
    Yes. Don't answer any questions. Stop talking. Some find this very difficult, but it is the key to being left alone.

    To others I suggest that you continue on with your day.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Yes. Don't answer any questions. Stop talking. Some find this very difficult, but it is the key to being left alone.

    To others I suggest that you continue on with your day.
    Harpo Marx could have set a perfect example on how to handle this situation.
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    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Enter 'behaving strangely' and 'disorderly conduct'....

    I know right!!!!
    But seriously I think if said loud enough not to be shouting at officers, but for others to hear, they in turn can tell that to any one who interviews them. Of course after that I believe in just ****. Like Mainsail and Gogo discussed.

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    I don't post much on this site, but I do read a lot of the postings !
    Today I guess I have something to say: I do not trust any Police officer any more, in my opinion they are trying to send a message .. .. ..

    Troy Meade getting away with murder.
    The Woodcarver being shot to death.
    Constant police harassment over OC’ing

    Obey or else !
    Last edited by Bersa.380; 10-09-2010 at 10:33 AM.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bersa.380 View Post
    I don't post much on this site, but I do read a lot of the postings !
    Today I guess I have something to say: I do not trust any Police officer any more, in my opinion they are trying to send a message .. .. ..

    Troy Meade getting away with murder.
    The Woodcarver being shot to death.
    Constant police harassment over OCíing

    Obey or else !
    To be polite, Iíll use the term silly to describe this, although itís difficult to do so.

    The police are on the job 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The percentage of bad encounters vs. good or no encounters is unbelievably minute. Yes, there are those who abuse their position, express opinion as law, and make mistakes- sometimes with deadly consequences. Nevertheless, the vast majority of officers are good, hard working men and women, doing a difficult and often dangerous job.

    Itís easy for some to talk tough on a forum, but I donít want to even imagine what life would be like without the cops out there doing their job. I have been detained illegally on several occasions, and not just for OC either. Iíve been handcuffed twice, in public, and was arrested once for OC. I still enthusiastically support the police officers who are out there doing their job properly and lawfully, and like I said, thatís the vast majority of them.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    To be polite, Iíll use the term silly to describe this, although itís difficult to do so.

    The police are on the job 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The percentage of bad encounters vs. good or no encounters is unbelievably minute. Yes, there are those who abuse their position, express opinion as law, and make mistakes- sometimes with deadly consequences. Nevertheless, the vast majority of officers are good, hard working men and women, doing a difficult and often dangerous job.

    Itís easy for some to talk tough on a forum, but I donít want to even imagine what life would be like without the cops out there doing their job. I have been detained illegally on several occasions, and not just for OC either. Iíve been handcuffed twice, in public, and was arrested once for OC. I still enthusiastically support the police officers who are out there doing their job properly and lawfully, and like I said, thatís the vast majority of them.
    Here are some statistics for the first half of 2010 that are compiled by an organization that tracks Police Misconduct.

    http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?page_id=2793

    "From January 2010 through June 2010 there were:

    2,541 Unique reports of police misconduct cited.
    3,240 Law enforcement officers cited in recorded police misconduct reports.
    178 Of the law enforcement officers reported were departmental leaders, police chiefs, and sheriffs.
    4,199 Alleged victims of police misconduct associated with these reports.
    124 Fatalities associated with these reports.
    17.9 Law enforcement officers cited in the news for misconduct each day on average.
    $148,512,000 in approximated police misconduct related settlements and judgments paid out in this period."

    ------------

    Considering that there are over 800,000 Police Officers in the US, from Federal on down to the smallest Municipalities, it is apparent that the misbehaving few are the clearly the minority.
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    While I agree with you, Mainsail, the real problem for us is that we can't tell which one of the officers is which. We have no clue which one is the "good" cop and which one the "bad." To assume that they are all good ones puts us at as much of a disadvantage as going the other way... Painting them with the same broad brush, as someone here put it on a different thread.

    So, for me, the easiest thing to do is NOT interact with officers. That means that I don't OC in some places, just cover up (this is usually in Pierce County and further north). It makes my life easier. Should I have to do that? Probably not. But, it is easier than the hassle of trying to extricate myself from a confrontation with a potentially hostile police officer. Down here in Lewis County I don't worry about it.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    While I agree with you, Mainsail, the real problem for us is that we can't tell which one of the officers is which. We have no clue which one is the "good" cop and which one the "bad." To assume that they are all good ones puts us at as much of a disadvantage as going the other way... Painting them with the same broad brush, as someone here put it on a different thread.
    To do as some might suggest, and consider them all bad, might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can set the tone of the encounter and that often puts a good outcome at a disadvantage.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    To do as some might suggest, and consider them all bad, might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can set the tone of the encounter and that often puts a good outcome at a disadvantage.
    Respectfully, this isn't putting much responsibility on the party initiating the encounter. If the tone becomes sour because I politely invoke my rights, am I responsible for the officer's reaction? Do we trade our rights for the hope of avoiding a beating? Or jail? Why aren't we confronting this possibility of beating or imprisonment, instead of forfeiting our rights under the disguise of "cooperation"?

    Every defense attorney worth his or her oxygen will tell you to view all unsummoned police as an adversarial encounter. They can't all be wrong. "Polite" and "smart" have different definitions, but there is nothing precluding you from being both at the same time.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    While I agree with you, Mainsail, the real problem for us is that we can't tell which one of the officers is which. We have no clue which one is the "good" cop and which one the "bad." To assume that they are all good ones puts us at as much of a disadvantage as going the other way... Painting them with the same broad brush, as someone here put it on a different thread.
    You don’t have to know which ones are good or which ones are bad, my advice stands, don’t talk. Don’t allow yourself to be drawn into a debate, don’t try to educate them with pamphlets or your knowledge of the RCWs, just don’t talk. I’ve watched people refuse to talk to the police, but then answer a question or two anyway. This is an interrogation tactic; the cop says something totally off kilter to draw you out. Always be polite, but don’t debate.

    So, for me, the easiest thing to do is NOT interact with officers. That means that I don't OC in some places, just cover up…
    That strikes me as odd. You don’t like bad cops, but your fear of them has changed your behavior. So they win. All they have to do is harass us and we’ll knuckle under and conceal? That will only reinforce their bad conduct.
    Last edited by Mainsail; 10-09-2010 at 01:39 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    If the tone becomes sour because I politely invoke my rights, am I responsible for the officer's reaction?

    Absolutely not. After several years of reading posts here, as well as other similar forums, I find that all too often people are carrying a chip on their shoulder that they are just begging to get knocked off. THAT is not being smart.

    You don't have to sacrifice your rights but approaching things in a polite, yet firm, manner more likely than not will gain more traction than a blatant confrontational attitude. You may still be subjected to questionable, if not downright illegal, actions by the officer but in the end you haven't cast any doubts on whether you contributed to the problem. Let them make all the mistakes and then just exercise another one of your rights. The right to file a complaint.
    Last edited by amlevin; 10-09-2010 at 01:47 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Absolutely not. After several years of reading posts here, as well as other similar forums, I find that all too often people are carrying a chip on their shoulder that they are just begging to get knocked off. THAT is not being smart.

    You don't have to sacrifice your rights but approaching things in a polite, yet firm, manner more likely than not will gain more traction than a blatant confrontational attitude. You may still be subjected to questionable, if not downright illegal, actions by the officer but in the end you haven't cast any doubts on whether you contributed to the problem. Let them make all the mistakes and then just exercise another one of your rights. The right to file a complaint.
    Very well stated...
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-09-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    To be polite, I’ll use the term silly to describe this, although it’s difficult to do so.

    The police are on the job 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The percentage of bad encounters vs. good or no encounters is unbelievably minute. Yes, there are those who abuse their position, express opinion as law, and make mistakes- sometimes with deadly consequences. Nevertheless, the vast majority of officers are good, hard working men and women, doing a difficult and often dangerous job.

    It’s easy for some to talk tough on a forum, but I don’t want to even imagine what life would be like without the cops out there doing their job. I have been detained illegally on several occasions, and not just for OC either. I’ve been handcuffed twice, in public, and was arrested once for OC. I still enthusiastically support the police officers who are out there doing their job properly and lawfully, and like I said, that’s the vast majority of them.
    You can think however you want ..... in my opinion 1% of cops being BAD is to much.
    You incounter that 1% during a traffic stop and she's in a bad mood because her and her husband got in a verbal fight before she went on shift and just because you're a guy she's might take it out on you ?
    Last edited by Bersa.380; 10-10-2010 at 03:36 PM.

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