Leo interactions

Fuller Malarkey · Oct 9, 2010

amlevin said:
To do as some might suggest, and consider them all bad, might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can set the tone of the encounter and that often puts a good outcome at a disadvantage.

Respectfully, this isn't putting much responsibility on the party initiating the encounter. If the tone becomes sour because I politely invoke my rights, am I responsible for the officer's reaction? Do we trade our rights for the hope of avoiding a beating? Or jail? Why aren't we confronting this possibility of beating or imprisonment, instead of forfeiting our rights under the disguise of "cooperation"?

Every defense attorney worth his or her oxygen will tell you to view all unsummoned police as an adversarial encounter. They can't all be wrong. "Polite" and "smart" have different definitions, but there is nothing precluding you from being both at the same time.

Mainsail · Oct 9, 2010

oneeyeross said:
While I agree with you, Mainsail, the real problem for us is that we can't tell which one of the officers is which. We have no clue which one is the "good" cop and which one the "bad." To assume that they are all good ones puts us at as much of a disadvantage as going the other way... Painting them with the same broad brush, as someone here put it on a different thread.

You don’t have to know which ones are good or which ones are bad, my advice stands, don’t talk. Don’t allow yourself to be drawn into a debate, don’t try to educate them with pamphlets or your knowledge of the RCWs, just don’t talk. I’ve watched people refuse to talk to the police, but then answer a question or two anyway. This is an interrogation tactic; the cop says something totally off kilter to draw you out. Always be polite, but don’t debate.

So, for me, the easiest thing to do is NOT interact with officers. That means that I don't OC in some places, just cover up…

That strikes me as odd. You don’t like bad cops, but your fear of them has changed your behavior. So they win. All they have to do is harass us and we’ll knuckle under and conceal? That will only reinforce their bad conduct.

amlevin · Oct 9, 2010

Fuller Malarkey said:
If the tone becomes sour because I politely invoke my rights, am I responsible for the officer's reaction?

Absolutely not. After several years of reading posts here, as well as other similar forums, I find that all too often people are carrying a chip on their shoulder that they are just begging to get knocked off. THAT is not being smart.

You don't have to sacrifice your rights but approaching things in a polite, yet firm, manner more likely than not will gain more traction than a blatant confrontational attitude. You may still be subjected to questionable, if not downright illegal, actions by the officer but in the end you haven't cast any doubts on whether you contributed to the problem. Let them make all the mistakes and then just exercise another one of your rights. The right to file a complaint.

BigDave · Oct 9, 2010

amlevin said:
Absolutely not. After several years of reading posts here, as well as other similar forums, I find that all too often people are carrying a chip on their shoulder that they are just begging to get knocked off. THAT is not being smart.

You don't have to sacrifice your rights but approaching things in a polite, yet firm, manner more likely than not will gain more traction than a blatant confrontational attitude. You may still be subjected to questionable, if not downright illegal, actions by the officer but in the end you haven't cast any doubts on whether you contributed to the problem. Let them make all the mistakes and then just exercise another one of your rights. The right to file a complaint.

Very well stated...

Bersa.380 · Oct 10, 2010

Mainsail said:
To be polite, I’ll use the term silly to describe this, although it’s difficult to do so.

The police are on the job 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The percentage of bad encounters vs. good or no encounters is unbelievably minute. Yes, there are those who abuse their position, express opinion as law, and make mistakes- sometimes with deadly consequences. Nevertheless, the vast majority of officers are good, hard working men and women, doing a difficult and often dangerous job.

It’s easy for some to talk tough on a forum, but I don’t want to even imagine what life would be like without the cops out there doing their job. I have been detained illegally on several occasions, and not just for OC either. I’ve been handcuffed twice, in public, and was arrested once for OC. I still enthusiastically support the police officers who are out there doing their job properly and lawfully, and like I said, that’s the vast majority of them.

You can think however you want ..... in my opinion 1% of cops being BAD is to much.
You incounter that 1% during a traffic stop and she's in a bad mood because her and her husband got in a verbal fight before she went on shift and just because you're a guy she's might take it out on you ?

amlevin · Oct 10, 2010

Bersa.380 said:
You can think however you want ..... in my opinion 1% of cops being BAD is to much.
You incounter that 1% during a traffic stop and she's in a bad mood because her and her husband got in a verbal fight before she went on shift and just because you're a guy she's might take it out on you ?

Are you behaving correctly 100% of the time? Do you do your job right and NEVER make an error?

Yeah, it's important to deal with the 1% but don't dismiss the 99% as bad just because of those few. Just remember, YOU may not be as perfect as you expect them to be.

sudden valley gunner · Oct 10, 2010

amlevin said:
Are you behaving correctly 100% of the time? Do you do your job right and NEVER make an error?

Yeah, it's important to deal with the 1% but don't dismiss the 99% as bad just because of those few. Just remember, YOU may not be as perfect as you expect them to be.

He's not a public servant taking his attitude out on the public who pays for him to be employed.

I think the argument on how drastically we need the police is pretty much propaganda.
The State, City, County "need" them to collect revenue and enforce laws even when those laws are not endangering or hurting anyone else.

Like professor John Lott's study you get more effective crime deterrent by arming the citizens. Why should those of us who take our personal protection pay for those who want to rely on a "system".

Individual cops for the most part are just folks like you and I going about their jobs, but I have seen whole departments "close ranks" to protect the horrible actions of a few, that means in my mind that whole department is bad and the system is broken.

amlevin · Oct 10, 2010

sudden valley gunner said:
Individual cops for the most part are just folks like you and I going about their jobs, but I have seen whole departments "close ranks" to protect the horrible actions of a few, that means in my mind that whole department is bad and the system is broken.

When that happens you do have the means to correct it. Police Departments work for the City, County, State and as such they are controlled by our elected representatives. If those who are elected don't do the job there are other means of redress. We have a Federal Department of Justice and the Courts available to us. Is it perfect? Probably not but I sure wouldn't want to see what we would have without it or worse, as you suggest, no police at all. A couple of words come to mind that would describe that, Chaos, and Anarchy. The rule of the "guy with the biggest gun"?????? Is that what you want?

sudden valley gunner · Oct 11, 2010

amlevin said:
When that happens you do have the means to correct it. Police Departments work for the City, County, State and as such they are controlled by our elected representatives. If those who are elected don't do the job there are other means of redress. We have a Federal Department of Justice and the Courts available to us. Is it perfect? Probably not but I sure wouldn't want to see what we would have without it or worse, as you suggest, no police at all. A couple of words come to mind that would describe that, Chaos, and Anarchy. The rule of the "guy with the biggest gun"?????? Is that what you want?

No that simply isn't true, there were no modern day police force in this country until 1833 the first being in Boston.

Just like the wild west is a myth it really wasn't a violent chaotic wild west.

Do we need some LEA's? Yes but this "proactive" go out and look for people breaking laws is unwarranted and in my opinion unconstitutional.

You'll find that most cities, don't care, they are willing to rally behind their LEA because they are in bed together and they convince the people that they are "necessary", so folks are willing to sacrifice their freedom and liberty for the illusion of safety.

We can look at the numerous abuses of OC'ers by LEA here on this site and in this state, many of these abuses amount to felonies, yet not one LEO has been charged with such, you and I would be though.

It is also hard to get charges pressed when the same attorneys that would bring these charges, defends cops when they are brought up on suit. It is also difficult when the officers and judges and prosecutors all work for the same department and are colleagues.

amlevin · Oct 11, 2010

sudden valley gunner said:
No that simply isn't true, there were no modern day police force in this country until 1833 the first being in Boston.

There were approximately 12 million people, 2 million of which were slaves, in this country at that time period.

Far cry from today where we have over 300 million. In those days everyone worked, either for the family business or for someone else. There were very few "freeloaders". No hand-outs or welfare. Same for the "old west". Until Towns and Cities grew to the point that they attracted the criminal hanger's on, they didn't need any police forces.

Would you really like to see NO POLICE? Better yet, NO Government as well? Perhaps you should visit Somalia before you answer those questions.

I posted earlier a site that tracked complaints about police officers.

Out of over 800,000 officers in all levels of law enforcement they showed about 2500 incidents where a crime was committed by the officer(s). That works out to just over 1/4 of one percent (0.3%)

Yes there are bad officers. But not all of them. According to the numbers in that report the bad are outnumbered over 300:1. I guess I have just been lucky and have encountered ones that are part of the 300.

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright, quoted in Reader's Digest, June 1995

oneeyeross · Oct 11, 2010

amlevin said:
When that happens you do have the means to correct it..../QUOTE]

Like in New Orleans? Sure got corrected there, didn't it? Oh, wait. It was the Federal Government that had to come in and correct it.

You must mean like the Rampart Division in LA. Oh...wait...no, that isn't right.

There MUST be someplace where that has happened, I just can't think of one right off the top of my head...

jtrider · Oct 11, 2010

amlevin said:
There were approximately 12 million people, 2 million of which were slaves, in this country at that time period.

Far cry from today where we have over 300 million. In those days everyone worked, either for the family business or for someone else. There were very few "freeloaders". No hand-outs or welfare. Same for the "old west". Until Towns and Cities grew to the point that they attracted the criminal hanger's on, they didn't need any police forces.

Would you really like to see NO POLICE? Better yet, NO Government as well? Perhaps you should visit Somalia before you answer those questions.

I posted earlier a site that tracked complaints about police officers.

Out of over 800,000 officers in all levels of law enforcement they showed about 2500 incidents where a crime was committed by the officer(s). That works out to just over 1/4 of one percent (0.3%)

Yes there are bad officers. But not all of them. According to the numbers in that report the bad are outnumbered over 300:1. I guess I have just been lucky and have encountered ones that are part of the 300.

Worth noting, your reference to "I posted earlier a site that tracked complaints about police officers"; doesn't that beg the question of how many offenses were unreported due to fear, intimidation, and simply not having the 5-20 thousand dollars it would take to engage in a lawsuit against the police?

I wonder how many offenses are dismissed in exchange for "retraining". And how many are impossible to pursue do to the protection of the Thin Blue Line? If those numbers could ever be obtained, I'm sure the statistics you presented would change considerably.

amlevin · Oct 11, 2010

oneeyeross said:
amlevin said:

When that happens you do have the means to correct it..../QUOTE]

Like in New Orleans? Sure got corrected there, didn't it? Oh, wait. It was the Federal Government that had to come in and correct it.

You must mean like the Rampart Division in LA. Oh...wait...no, that isn't right.

There MUST be someplace where that has happened, I just can't think of one right off the top of my head...

Click to expand...

Did you read this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/13/AR2010071306308.html
"6 New Orleans officers charged in Katrina shootings"
Or this:

http://www.crimelynx.com/rampcov.html
"3 Ex-Rampart Officers Charged in Beating and Cover-Up

Contrary to popular belief, Police Officers ARE charged with crimes.

BTW, it took me about 30 seconds to locate these news reports. With time I could probably find a ton more where Police Officers have been charged, and even convicted of crimes against citizens.

sudden valley gunner · Oct 11, 2010

amlevin said:
There were approximately 12 million people, 2 million of which were slaves, in this country at that time period.

Far cry from today where we have over 300 million. In those days everyone worked, either for the family business or for someone else. There were very few "freeloaders". No hand-outs or welfare. Same for the "old west". Until Towns and Cities grew to the point that they attracted the criminal hanger's on, they didn't need any police forces.

Would you really like to see NO POLICE? Better yet, NO Government as well? Perhaps you should visit Somalia before you answer those questions.

I posted earlier a site that tracked complaints about police officers.

Out of over 800,000 officers in all levels of law enforcement they showed about 2500 incidents where a crime was committed by the officer(s). That works out to just over 1/4 of one percent (0.3%)

Yes there are bad officers. But not all of them. According to the numbers in that report the bad are outnumbered over 300:1. I guess I have just been lucky and have encountered ones that are part of the 300.

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright, quoted in Reader's Digest, June 1995

Population has nothing to do with it and neither does slavery. Less than 2 percent of U.S. population owned slaves all in the south, where there were no modern day police forces until the 20th century ( I don't count sheriff departments since the sheriff is a duly elected official, or town constable who mostly did their job voluntarily at these times). The first police force was in Boston with a population more than the majority of cities today. New York was next and the North Eastern large cities followed. You use an age old trick of trying to accuse me of being absolutely anti which I am not. I do emphatically believe in limiting both LEA and since you brought it up Government too. I am for a constitutional government and system, where the checks are in place on the government including the police. Yet these seem to have disappeared.

This argument that it will be 'anarchy' is a straw argument similar to the anti-gunners argument that there will be blood in the streets and the wild wild west (which was actually less wild than the large north east cities who had police enforcement). There is no evidence supporting such, and actually contrary evidence that an armed society experiences less crime and violence (Kennesaw, Georgia).

There were 9 murders and countless burglaries and thefts and assaults in my county last year, no amount of law enforcement would have prevented any of these. And the ones that are solved are due to other citizens who turn in the suspects.

Now if you get rid of stupid drug laws and other ridiculous laws that have no victims we would need a police force that is a small percentage of what we have now. But of course the LEA bureaucracies and unions use scare tactics and etc, to prevent this and have even lobbied and 'strong armed' cities and government in any actions that would actually do this.

protias · Oct 11, 2010

"Am I free to go?"
"Am I being detained?"

Then there are some videos in my sig.

protias · Oct 11, 2010

NavyLT said:
Cop answers "Yes". Now what?

"Am I free to go?"
Yes
*walks away*

"Am I being detained?"
Yes
"Do you suspect I am about to commit a crime, in the midst of commit a crime, or have committed a crime?" or don't talk to police.

DEROS72 · Oct 12, 2010

I agree with GoGo on that stop talking. On a couple of occasions One at the train station a LEO and security aproached and said they had a complaint on the train.I simply said I haven't spoken to anyone pushed my way past said have a nice day fellas and walked off. However there have been a couple of occasions I have engaged officers in conversation but at no time did they ask for ID.

Along time ago when I still had my car I was stopped for speeding.When the officer approaced the window I rolled it down said I would like a Big mac,large fries and a coke and rolled the window back up......HE was not amused.

amlevin · Oct 12, 2010

DEROS72 said:
Along time ago when I still had my car I was stopped for speeding.When the officer approaced the window I rolled it down said I would like a Big mac,large fries and a coke and rolled the window back up......HE was not amused.

Did this encounter with the officer have anything to do with your not having a car now?

oneeyeross · Oct 12, 2010

amlevin said:
oneeyeross said:

Did you read this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/13/AR2010071306308.html
"6 New Orleans officers charged in Katrina shootings"
Or this:

http://www.crimelynx.com/rampcov.html
"3 Ex-Rampart Officers Charged in Beating and Cover-Up

Contrary to popular belief, Police Officers ARE charged with crimes.

BTW, it took me about 30 seconds to locate these news reports. With time I could probably find a ton more where Police Officers have been charged, and even convicted of crimes against citizens.

Click to expand...

My issue with those cases is the local population don't have the "means to correct it" not that it didn't get corrected. Usually, it takes a Civil Rights case by the Federal Government to correct the problem, because the locals take care of their own...Like in New Orleans, and the Rampart problem was not the beating of three individuals, but the corruption of the whole section that had the potential to damage hundreds or thousands of cases...Cops that falsified testimony, planted evidence...that kind of thing.

Also with regard to Rampart: Of the 70 officers named by Pérez, only 24 were actually found to have committed any wrongdoing, with 12 given suspensions of various lengths, 7 resigned, and 5 terminated.

oneeyeross · Oct 12, 2010

http://www.csupomona.edu/~jis/2003/Reese.pdf

"Officers can only be counted as good when they use their characteristic skills in the right way, and for the right ends. That is, morality is an integral part of police work (Miller, Blackler, and Alexandra, 1997)...
Indeed, the staunch protection of civilliberties is what separates the U.S. from totalitarian nations. Indeed, without the Bill of Rights our Constitution would be seriously flawed. The behavior of many police officers, especially in urban centers, is undermining democracy, civility and diminishing trust among significant
sectors of the American public. It is the greatest threat to human rights in this country. Racial
profiling, excessive force, police brutality, and blatant disregard for civil liberties have
magnified the flaws in our democratic society..."

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