Thread: Permit Required?
what is everyone's opinion of a shall issue permit system vs. a constitutional carry system?
"I have a long held belief that a man cannot have too many books, too many wines, or to much ammunition"
Government involvement is an infringement and grows government and its expenses.
"Permit" is from the same root as 'permission' and permits prerequisites even in shall issue states. Been there, done that.
Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
No permit carry is in the GOP plank. After the election, given we get a GOP majority in the Senate, Assembly, and Governor, we need to write all the GOP candidates and remind them of this.
A simple REPEAL of 941.23 is all that is required. Such a bill would have no fiscal impact, would avoid several committee hearings because of this, could be signed by the Governor in May of 2011, and we could have concealed carry the next day.
Any training/permit bill won't go to the Governor until August and won't be ready to start the permits until sometime in 2012. Will require an entire bureaucracy to be set up, and will increase taxes/fees.
Certain "gun rights" groups want to re-introduce the 2003 and/or 2005 bills. I would tell you the climate has changed, OC is now prevalent everywhere and the 2nd is incorporated to the states. Those that want to re-introduce the 2003/2005 bills (admit they [the bills] were/are the most stringent shall issue in the country) want to go BACKWARDS.
These are the same groups/people who think we need permits to "appease" the anti's.
A better question is, do we what a one paragraph easy to read/understand bill, that everybody will easily know what it says or do we want a "health-care" 100 page have to pass it before we know what's in it bill?
Keep in mind that Barrett has said, "I don't see the need" so he will VETO any/all CC bill, and Walker has confirmed via email to WCI he would sign a REPEAL on 941.23.
From my point of view, REPEAL is the correct course of action, and CAN be accomplished. The only thing standing in the way is those who are telling us, "it can't be done."
The term "Constitutional Carry" is an invention of "patriots", Libertarians and far right wingers to make you feel as though the government is short changing you and depriving you of some right. Find me the term "Constitutional Carry" in ANY of the Founding Fathers writings including the Constitution itself and I will eat my hat. It has been left to the states to determine the details of how the second amendment is carried out in that particular state.
As BnH has stated to get Moderately Restricted Carry all that has to happen is a repeal of 941.23 but don't hold your breath.
Last edited by Spartacus; 10-05-2010 at 10:27 AM.
permits? we don't need no steenkin permits!
In CT, we have a permit required to purchase and carry a handgun. It is 'shall issue' and is required to carry OC or CC.
It is a mess. Do not concede to a permit system. Dig your feet in and fight for what is right.
I have been formulating a letter that I would send to my elected officials November 3rd. In it, I would outline the argument for smaller government, the platform as well as court cases, DA decisions and other data that would lead to the conclusion that the repeal of certain statutes would be in the best interest of all involved.
When I finish it, I'll post it here for feedback. If we all inundate the people elected, we may have a chance to make a major step (maybe a leap?) toward Constitutional Carry.
Here I am agreeing with Spartacus twice this week so be ready for an apocalypse. True Constitutional Carry, at least the way I've used it, is a misnomer. True Constitutional Carry would involve NO restrictions as to weapon, place or person 'allowed' to carry. The SCOTUS has already ruled that true CC is not achievable.
Right now we have the right oc without a permit, and no problems. Why should we change our thinking if we put on a jacket?
There will be media bias to overcome as well as the misinformation campaign orchestered by the Joyce Foundation using WAVE, Leaque of Women Voters, Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association, Mayors Against Guns and anyone else the Joyce Foundation can buy off with a "grant."
You can bet the all the anti's will marching to the same tune.
Would getting 941.23 repealed help much with the hassle of the vehicle transportation requirements?. If I understand things right, we would still have to "unload and encase" because of the " in or on a vehicle" language of 167.31. So, we have to do the "dance" getting in and out of the car.
I would like to have the option to OC or CC depending on the season/weather. I dont want to risk heat stroke in the summer just to conceal.....
Why are you so unwilling to fight for what is right and so unwilling to fight for regaining our constitutionally guaranteed rights?
Maybe you should just go back to hanging out with your buddies at the Joyce foundation and quit trying to sabotage the progress of the WI residents who want the ban on concealed-carry repealed.
Like I said I had no problem with CT permitting for the 5 or so years I lived out there. None whatsoever.
Will there be problems in WI's permitting system, sure but we will have to deal with it as it comes up and work to remove onerous restrictions.
Or you can just not concede to a permit system and avoid all of the problems that come with it.Will there be problems in WI's permitting system, sure but we will have to deal with it as it comes up and work to remove onerous restrictions.
If Scott Walker is elected we are assured at a MINIMUM to get a shall issue permit system. That is a virtual guarantee.
If anyone thinks a permit system will prevent crime/affect criminals, they have another think coming.
Thus it appears a permit system is either to:
-acquiesce to the anti-gunners
-provide a guaranteed revenue stream for firearms instructors, increasing cost of training/decreasing quality
-provide another taxable income generator for big-government
-provide government with a means to effectively limit right-to-carry in the future when anti-gun politicians get elected and hike up fee's and restrictions for permit renewals. (we may not always have a pro-gun Wisconsin legislature, and it will be VERY easy to just start jacking up fee's and restrictions)
-be a feel-good symbolism over substance measure to pacify the news media.
One could argue all day about semantics. Is a shall issue permit a "right" or a "privilege"??? Its a moot point. Some think as long as its "shall" issue, not "may" issue, its a right. We can play word games all day. The bigger picture is a permit system doesn't make sense. It doesn't provide a benefit.
Knowing a shall-issue permit system is a virtual guarantee if Scott Walker is elected, why would anyone who has the ultimate goal of the smallest government most sensible right to carry set a shall-issue permit system as their goal? Anyone skilled in negotiation will tell you that you don't go to the table and use what you would accept as a starting point. You go to the table with your ideal outcome as your starting point. It always possible to settle for less, but never possible to get more than you begin asking for.
Repeal of 941.23 is possible. In some parts of the state that isn't being enforced NOW. (jackson county)
In other parts of the state (Waukesha County) the DA is not charging vehicle carry because he questions if THAT would be upheld constitutionally in light of McDonald V. Chicago and Heller.
The WI GOP party changed their platform to eliminate "permit" from their right to carry position.
Beyond gun-rights specific issues, people ALL over the state are fed up with big government. Tea Party participation is phenomenal. Even non-gun owners would jump on board with repeal of 941.23 simply because its smaller government, less bureaucracy.
If this isn't the perfect storm to just repeal 941.23, what is?
Find ONE state assemblyman to introduce a repeal of 941.23 and lets see which republicans will buck the party platform and vote AGAINST that.
If we don't get a repeal of 941.23 its not because it wasn't possible but because we didn't try.
Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 10-05-2010 at 10:56 AM.
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