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Thread: Permit Required?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Permit Required?

    what is everyone's opinion of a shall issue permit system vs. a constitutional carry system?
    "I have a long held belief that a man cannot have too many books, too many wines, or to much ammunition"

    ~Jeff Cooper~

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    what is everyone's opinion of a shall issue permit system vs. a constitutional carry system?
    I believe in "shall not be infringed." Constitutional carry is the direction this state should try to go.

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    Government involvement is an infringement and grows government and its expenses.

    "Permit" is from the same root as 'permission' and permits prerequisites even in shall issue states. Been there, done that.

    Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Been discussed ad nauseam

    No permit carry is in the GOP plank. After the election, given we get a GOP majority in the Senate, Assembly, and Governor, we need to write all the GOP candidates and remind them of this.

    A simple REPEAL of 941.23 is all that is required. Such a bill would have no fiscal impact, would avoid several committee hearings because of this, could be signed by the Governor in May of 2011, and we could have concealed carry the next day.

    Any training/permit bill won't go to the Governor until August and won't be ready to start the permits until sometime in 2012. Will require an entire bureaucracy to be set up, and will increase taxes/fees.

    Certain "gun rights" groups want to re-introduce the 2003 and/or 2005 bills. I would tell you the climate has changed, OC is now prevalent everywhere and the 2nd is incorporated to the states. Those that want to re-introduce the 2003/2005 bills (admit they [the bills] were/are the most stringent shall issue in the country) want to go BACKWARDS.

    These are the same groups/people who think we need permits to "appease" the anti's.

    A better question is, do we what a one paragraph easy to read/understand bill, that everybody will easily know what it says or do we want a "health-care" 100 page have to pass it before we know what's in it bill?

    Keep in mind that Barrett has said, "I don't see the need" so he will VETO any/all CC bill, and Walker has confirmed via email to WCI he would sign a REPEAL on 941.23.

    From my point of view, REPEAL is the correct course of action, and CAN be accomplished. The only thing standing in the way is those who are telling us, "it can't be done."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    The only thing standing in the way is those who are telling us, "it can't be done."
    Hmmmm... I would say "it won't be done", not "it can't be done", but go ahead and be as optimistic as you like. Politicians promise anything and everything to get elected but after the elections its another story.

    The term "Constitutional Carry" is an invention of "patriots", Libertarians and far right wingers to make you feel as though the government is short changing you and depriving you of some right. Find me the term "Constitutional Carry" in ANY of the Founding Fathers writings including the Constitution itself and I will eat my hat. It has been left to the states to determine the details of how the second amendment is carried out in that particular state.

    As BnH has stated to get Moderately Restricted Carry all that has to happen is a repeal of 941.23 but don't hold your breath.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 10-05-2010 at 11:27 AM.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    As BnH has stated to get Moderately Unrestricted Carry all that has to happen is a repeal of 941.23 but don't hold your breath.
    Don't worry, I wont (hold my breath)! I'll continue to work to advance carry rights for all citizens, especially those who refuse to acknowledge/support OC and demand privilege over right.

    (Nope, ain't talking about any individual, rather the organizations)

  7. #7
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    permits? we don't need no steenkin permits!

  8. #8
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    Don't worry, I wont (hold my breath)! I'll continue to work to advance carry rights for all citizens, especially those who refuse to acknowledge/support OC and demand privilege over right.

    (Nope, ain't talking about any individual, rather the organizations)
    It seems to me that if we would all unite after the elections and contact our lawmakers that we could have a chance at repealing the ccw ban. It will take an army of emails and phone calls to get our message through to them but I believe we are capable of doing just that. Our numbers are large enough, and growing larger every day. If we shout loud enough our voices will be hard to ignore.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    It seems to me that if we would all unite after the elections and contact our lawmakers that we could have a chance at repealing the ccw ban. It will take an army of emails and phone calls to get our message through to them but I believe we are capable of doing just that. Our numbers are large enough, and growing larger every day. If we shout loud enough our voices will be hard to ignore.
    We agree here 100%, the question is:

    How do we get the "other" state groups on board with REPEAL?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    In CT, we have a permit required to purchase and carry a handgun. It is 'shall issue' and is required to carry OC or CC.

    It is a mess. Do not concede to a permit system. Dig your feet in and fight for what is right.

  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I have been formulating a letter that I would send to my elected officials November 3rd. In it, I would outline the argument for smaller government, the platform as well as court cases, DA decisions and other data that would lead to the conclusion that the repeal of certain statutes would be in the best interest of all involved.
    When I finish it, I'll post it here for feedback. If we all inundate the people elected, we may have a chance to make a major step (maybe a leap?) toward Constitutional Carry.

    Here I am agreeing with Spartacus twice this week so be ready for an apocalypse. True Constitutional Carry, at least the way I've used it, is a misnomer. True Constitutional Carry would involve NO restrictions as to weapon, place or person 'allowed' to carry. The SCOTUS has already ruled that true CC is not achievable.

  12. #12
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    We agree here 100%, the question is:

    How do we get the "other" state groups on board with REPEAL?
    I would like them to show statisticle evidence that Vermont, Alaska and Arizona are having problems with a no permit system. Those states have had this in place long enough to show data for or against permits. Opinions and emotions are one thing but it is very difficult to argue stats. Everybody is to use to the permit system, this feels normal to them, they should be offended at having to ask permission to excersise a right. To many states think they have the right to carry when it is only three that actually have the right, everybody else has permission, for now.
    Right now we have the right oc without a permit, and no problems. Why should we change our thinking if we put on a jacket?

  13. #13
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    In CT, we have a permit required to purchase and carry a handgun. It is 'shall issue' and is required to carry OC or CC.

    It is a mess. Do not concede to a permit system. Dig your feet in and fight for what is right.
    Thank you, unfortunately this is the problem when you need permission to carry.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    It seems to me that if we would all unite after the elections and contact our lawmakers that we could have a chance at repealing the ccw ban. It will take an army of emails and phone calls to get our message through to them but I believe we are capable of doing just that. Our numbers are large enough, and growing larger every day. If we shout loud enough our voices will be hard to ignore.
    That is if the cat herd that are gun rights groups can get together and agree on a strategy. And yes, that will include compromise, or if you prefer, being pragmatic.

    There will be media bias to overcome as well as the misinformation campaign orchestered by the Joyce Foundation using WAVE, Leaque of Women Voters, Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association, Mayors Against Guns and anyone else the Joyce Foundation can buy off with a "grant."

    http://www.joycefdn.org/content.cfm/...rderAsc=0&rr=1

    You can bet the all the anti's will marching to the same tune.

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    Would getting 941.23 repealed help much with the hassle of the vehicle transportation requirements?. If I understand things right, we would still have to "unload and encase" because of the " in or on a vehicle" language of 167.31. So, we have to do the "dance" getting in and out of the car.

    I would like to have the option to OC or CC depending on the season/weather. I dont want to risk heat stroke in the summer just to conceal.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Hmmmm... I would say "it won't be done", not "it can't be done", but go ahead and be as optimistic as you like. Politicians promise anything and everything to get elected but after the elections its another story.

    The term "Constitutional Carry" is an invention of "patriots", Libertarians and far right wingers to make you feel as though the government is short changing you and depriving you of some right. Find me the term "Constitutional Carry" in ANY of the Founding Fathers writings including the Constitution itself and I will eat my hat. It has been left to the states to determine the details of how the second amendment is carried out in that particular state.

    As BnH has stated to get Moderately Unrestricted Carry all that has to happen is a repeal of 941.23 but don't hold your breath.

    Why are you so unwilling to fight for what is right and so unwilling to fight for regaining our constitutionally guaranteed rights?
    Maybe you should just go back to hanging out with your buddies at the Joyce foundation and quit trying to sabotage the progress of the WI residents who want the ban on concealed-carry repealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    In CT, we have a permit required to purchase and carry a handgun. It is 'shall issue' and is required to carry OC or CC.

    It is a mess. Do not concede to a permit system. Dig your feet in and fight for what is right.
    Dude, I carried in CT for years and had absolutely zero problems in getting and keeping my permit. You will have to define "mess" for me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    Why are you so unwilling to fight for what is right and so unwilling to fight for regaining our constitutionally guaranteed rights?
    Maybe you should just go back to hanging out with your buddies at the Joyce foundation and quit trying to sabotage the progress of the WI residents who want the ban on concealed-carry repealed.
    I don't know you but I'm pretty sure I've done as much or more than you have for this cause, but we don't have to "regain" anything. Its already ours according to Article 1 Sec 25. All we have to do is get the restrictive statutes modified or repealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I don't know you but I'm pretty sure I've done as much or more than you have for this cause, but we don't have to "regain" anything. Its already ours according to Article 1 Sec 25. All we have to do is get the restrictive statutes modified or repealed.
    So this is a pi$$ing match now?
    you continue to advocate for permits being required to exercise a right, I need to ask, What is your cause?
    Last edited by Nutczak; 10-05-2010 at 11:30 AM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Dude, I carried in CT for years and had absolutely zero problems in getting and keeping my permit. You will have to define "mess" for me...
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...90-Connecticut

    You can read for yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    So this is a pi$$ing match now?
    you continue to advocate for permits being required to exercise a right, I need to ask, What is your cause?
    I'm not "advocating" for anything. You have and still are misunderstanding me.

    You enjoy misunderstanding me to try and bait me into ridiculous arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Oh you want me to read the whole forum?

    Like I said I had no problem with CT permitting for the 5 or so years I lived out there. None whatsoever.

    Will there be problems in WI's permitting system, sure but we will have to deal with it as it comes up and work to remove onerous restrictions.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Oh you want me to read the whole forum?
    If you would like. Otherwise, you can read the relevant threads. Your choice.

    Will there be problems in WI's permitting system, sure but we will have to deal with it as it comes up and work to remove onerous restrictions.
    Or you can just not concede to a permit system and avoid all of the problems that come with it.

  24. #24
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    That is if the cat herd that are gun rights groups can get together and agree on a strategy. And yes, that will include compromise, or if you prefer, being pragmatic.

    There will be media bias to overcome as well as the misinformation campaign orchestered by the Joyce Foundation using WAVE, Leaque of Women Voters, Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association, Mayors Against Guns and anyone else the Joyce Foundation can buy off with a "grant."

    http://www.joycefdn.org/content.cfm/...rderAsc=0&rr=1

    You can bet the all the anti's will marching to the same tune.
    You are absolutly correct, all the anti-gunners will unite against our cause with the suport of the media. One tactic politicians use to gain votes is to not be to specific. We need to do the same thing. What I mean is we should be contacting ALL sportsmen, ALL hunters not just gun rights people. We should have conversations with The Wisconsin Waterfowlers, The Buck and Bear club, Ducks Unlimited, The Wisconsin Whitetailers, any group that is interested in hunting or shooting sports. I think we could find alot of suport lurking in the shadows of these groups. I think most people who belong to these groups would suport us. If we can unite the pro-gun groups with the pro-hunting groups all in the end would win. I believe if we can unite and suport the foundation, the 2nd. amendment, then all groups, gun rights and sportsmen would win.

  25. #25
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    If Scott Walker is elected we are assured at a MINIMUM to get a shall issue permit system. That is a virtual guarantee.

    If anyone thinks a permit system will prevent crime/affect criminals, they have another think coming.

    Thus it appears a permit system is either to:

    -acquiesce to the anti-gunners
    -provide a guaranteed revenue stream for firearms instructors, increasing cost of training/decreasing quality
    -provide another taxable income generator for big-government
    -provide government with a means to effectively limit right-to-carry in the future when anti-gun politicians get elected and hike up fee's and restrictions for permit renewals. (we may not always have a pro-gun Wisconsin legislature, and it will be VERY easy to just start jacking up fee's and restrictions)
    -be a feel-good symbolism over substance measure to pacify the news media.

    One could argue all day about semantics. Is a shall issue permit a "right" or a "privilege"??? Its a moot point. Some think as long as its "shall" issue, not "may" issue, its a right. We can play word games all day. The bigger picture is a permit system doesn't make sense. It doesn't provide a benefit.

    Knowing a shall-issue permit system is a virtual guarantee if Scott Walker is elected, why would anyone who has the ultimate goal of the smallest government most sensible right to carry set a shall-issue permit system as their goal? Anyone skilled in negotiation will tell you that you don't go to the table and use what you would accept as a starting point. You go to the table with your ideal outcome as your starting point. It always possible to settle for less, but never possible to get more than you begin asking for.

    Repeal of 941.23 is possible. In some parts of the state that isn't being enforced NOW. (jackson county)

    In other parts of the state (Waukesha County) the DA is not charging vehicle carry because he questions if THAT would be upheld constitutionally in light of McDonald V. Chicago and Heller.

    The WI GOP party changed their platform to eliminate "permit" from their right to carry position.

    Beyond gun-rights specific issues, people ALL over the state are fed up with big government. Tea Party participation is phenomenal. Even non-gun owners would jump on board with repeal of 941.23 simply because its smaller government, less bureaucracy.

    If this isn't the perfect storm to just repeal 941.23, what is?

    Find ONE state assemblyman to introduce a repeal of 941.23 and lets see which republicans will buck the party platform and vote AGAINST that.

    If we don't get a repeal of 941.23 its not because it wasn't possible but because we didn't try.

    Carry On
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 10-05-2010 at 11:56 AM.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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