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Thread: Am I Being Detained?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Am I Being Detained?

    You know, I've been following the recent stories of LEO misbehavior, mostly having to do with just a few incidents, and I've been thinking.

    In the comments on each story, and in various threads on various forums, discussing these incidents many people have pointed out the option of asking "Am I being detained?" and leaving if the opportunity presents itself.

    My question is "Why should I leave before I'm good and ready?"

    If I'm sitting there enjoying my meal, coffee, whatever and I'm approached by a LEO who demands to see my ID, once it's been established that he/she has no RAS and I am not being detained, why can't I continue doing what I was doing until I'm finished? To leave before I'm ready means that I'm giving up my right to be in a place where I'm entitled and welcome to be, and to give in to the trampling of my basic right to the pursuit of happiness.

    If an officer has no right to ask me for ID and the owner/manager hasn't asked me to leave I have every right to stay right where I am... don't I?
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  2. #2
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    of course! You can stay there all you want. However let me point this out (nothing against anyone, not even necessarily bad, just something to think about)

    In Tom's case he asked if he was being detained and was told no, the leo then went outside and called in his "entourage" and they continued to harrass Tom while telling him he was not being detained.

    This goes back to what my ma's an' pa's used to been tellin me "it takes a bigger man to walk away." Sure you can stay there, however what is going to happen when you keep getting harrassed? How far will it go? Will they call buddies and place you in a situation that you can no longer leave freely?

    I am not saying there is a right way or a wrong way, my personal way would be to just move along and count it as a "bigger man" victory for me.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Believe me, I'm not going to pop them in the kisser or anything. I would just tell them "This interview is over" and continue about my business. When I was done I would leave. I would also make sure everyone in the place was a witness to the event. I just don't see why I should allow them to trample my rights in ANY way.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    I don't go against you often Doc, and I know you won't take this wrong ...

    In the Army we fought for every inch of ground we get. If I want coffee and some LEO wants to ask questions, I ain't moving until I drank my fill. If there is no reason for him to speak to me, he can exercise his right so **** while I enjoy my coffee because I'll have nothing to say in return. RAS is your friend and in Tom's case ... I'd have done the same thing. I love the whole "This conversation is over."

    I see the point of both views and I know this thread will have an array. But, after speaking with everyone I'm going to take my stand anymore. You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. I do hope and honestly pray the LEOs learn from the Spanaway incident before it gets worse. Neither view is absolutely right, but for me, I will quote the 82nd Airborne:

    Dec. 23, 1944 - "Battle of the Bulge" - An entire U.S. armored division was retreating from the Germans in the Ardennes forest when a sergeant in a tank destroyer spotted an American digging a foxhole. The GI, PFC Martin, 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, looked up and asked, "Are you looking for a safe place?" "Yeah" answered the tanker. "Well, buddy," he drawled, "just pull your vehicle behind me...

    I'm the 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the bastards are going."

  5. #5
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    huh

    in toms case it was important, (in my way of thinking) to stay put,
    in the comparative safety of the coffee house, witnesses, video, etc.
    to leave that sanctuary, and go out in the world,
    would not have been an escape, it would have been an opportunity
    for the cops to escalate the harassment.
    most times leaving would be the "safe" option, but not then.
    otherwise i agree with bookman,, once they say you are not detained,
    you can end any further consensual contact,
    go on with your meal, and ignore them, you are now "in the clear"!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Son_of_Perdition's Avatar
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    The answer is Yes, Yes you can stay.
    The bigger question might be is how far a bad LEO might go in the event that he himself is in violation of the law in regards to your liberty's. If you are law abiding and he wants to play Hugo Chavez for a day and completely forget who he works for. He knows when it comes down to his lie against your truth in a court of law. He will win every time.
    This is not a blanket statement about LEO's on my part. Before the good men in blue on the board paint me as a cop hater. Please understand. I only am disappointed in the bad cops. Not the good LEO's. So if you are a bad cop please proceed to hate me and rue the day in which we may meet. But If you are like most I have met, I salute you.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I don't go against you often Doc, and I know you won't take this wrong ...

    In the Army we fought for every inch of ground we get. If I want coffee and some LEO wants to ask questions, I ain't moving until I drank my fill. If there is no reason for him to speak to me, he can exercise his right so **** while I enjoy my coffee because I'll have nothing to say in return. RAS is your friend and in Tom's case ... I'd have done the same thing. I love the whole "This conversation is over."

    I see the point of both views and I know this thread will have an array. But, after speaking with everyone I'm going to take my stand anymore. You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. I do hope and honestly pray the LEOs learn from the Spanaway incident before it gets worse. Neither view is absolutely right, but for me, I will quote the 82nd Airborne:

    Dec. 23, 1944 - "Battle of the Bulge" - An entire U.S. armored division was retreating from the Germans in the Ardennes forest when a sergeant in a tank destroyer spotted an American digging a foxhole. The GI, PFC Martin, 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, looked up and asked, "Are you looking for a safe place?" "Yeah" answered the tanker. "Well, buddy," he drawled, "just pull your vehicle behind me...

    I'm the 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the bastards are going."
    No offense taken Goose.

    As I stated I PERSONALLY would not want to deal with the hassle and headache IF there was a way to avoid it. I was not referring to the bigger man theory as a "knock him out" type answer, but more of a "I have said my piece, have not done what he wanted me to, now before this gets too nasty let me make a tactical exit."

    Again to each their own, I am not here to judge. Just trying to point out that AT TIMES staying put can be more of a headache than just leaving (deescalating the situation).
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    I guess my point is "At what point do you give up your rights?"
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    No offense taken Goose.

    As I stated I PERSONALLY would not want to deal with the hassle and headache IF there was a way to avoid it. I was not referring to the bigger man theory as a "knock him out" type answer, but more of a "I have said my piece, have not done what he wanted me to, now before this gets too nasty let me make a tactical exit."

    Again to each their own, I am not here to judge. Just trying to point out that AT TIMES staying put can be more of a headache than just leaving (deescalating the situation).
    I see both sides, i truly do. I've just had my fill with being run off. You made a great point though, and that's what forums are for Yet another reason to live in the woods

  10. #10
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    Same here Goose. Just my personal belief. Others are entitled to theirs as well.

    Bookman: I believe that you would give up your rights either when you "consensually" give them up, OR when "an ordinary person" would feel they were no longer free to go.

    Using Tom's case as an example (sorry I keep throwing you out there Tom) I belief he was free to go after the initial, single PCSO encounter, however he was NOT FREE to go after the "backup" arrived.

    Looking at what I have seen it is basically one of those, "am I free to go?" well if the answer no, or don't answer you are free to go. However if you get a "hold on a minute" or somethign similar, you can assume your rights are pretty much DITW.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    If he returns with a posse, do we have a right to call in ours? It shouldn't come to being afraid to stay or leave and give up the right to "detainment" by staying. Tom did it right, for his situation, in my opinion anyway.

    I never understood "consensual detainment" and whether staying to finish your burger complies with it if he's rounding up more trouble. I like DEROS' answer to his small incident @ his haircut place.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    DD, all I can say is that if you're willing to voluntarily give up your rights at one point, why not at the easier one and just cave to begin with.

    I have rights and I refuse to knowingly allow others to take them. I will NOT place my rights into the hands of another to keep from me.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    You bring up a good point Bookman, however for me it is not about giving up my rights. I will wholeheartedly stand up and defend my rights and the rights of others. I look at it "tactically" as a "choose your battles" type instance.

    Your opinions and your decisions are completely yours, to which you are entitled. Take Tom's instance for example, when it came to supporting him for what he did, whether I would have done the same thing or not, I was there (probably one of the ones that was there the longest, but that is irrelevant).

    Does that mean I am gonna roll over and play dead because the officer asked me to? Hell no! I will however analyze a situation (and any potential situations if possible) and make the best tactically relevant decision possible.

    Kind like ORM (Operational Risk Management) What is going to provide the most amount of benefit with the least amount of possible risk?

    You can say that I am giving up my rights, however I look at it as I am excersicing my right to politely and without words tell the officer to go * themselves ********************

    ----Moderator edited---
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    SNIP ... tell the officer to go * themselves *********** ----Moderator edited---.
    Visual thinker here ... I've never heard it put quite that way before.

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    "
    Am I being deyained?"
    "No"
    "I hope you have a nice day officer, you are dismissed."

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Thank you, sir!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    "
    Am I being detained?"
    "No"
    "I hope you have a nice day officer, you are dismissed."
    My point exactly!
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Call 911 and report that you are trying to eat your lunch and four men claiming to be police officers are harassing you.

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    A wiser man than I said, " You don't have to stand tall, but you do have to stand UP " !

    Semper Fi
    I am a Sheep Dog, ... Wolves Beware !

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post

    My question is "Why should I leave before I'm good and ready?"

    Because if you remain after being told you are "not being detained", it may be construed as an implied consent for the officer to continue with his questions.

    This was part of a court finding from a traffic stop, I believe occurred in Spokane. (sorry, I have not been able to find the citation). As I recall, a passenger in a vehicle that was stopped was advised that they were free to leave. They did not and while they were remaining at the "scene" were eventually arrested for a violation I can't recall. The Court stated that since the person failed to leave when they could they were essentially consenting to the officer's actions.

    As I see it, if you have the opportunity to leave it is the best tactical decision. To remain and confront the officers may not have the same result as it did in Spanaway. Get names of all involved before leaving and file a complaint.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I would just tell them "This interview is over" and continue about my business.
    At which point, I would totally ignor them. That is easier to do if you have something to read while you are finishing your meal or coffee. I always have a copy of the Constitution in my back pocket, and it provides me with excellent reading material!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    Call 911 and report that you are trying to eat your lunch and four men claiming to be police officers are harassing you.
    Careful with the above logic. I thought this would be a good idea too until I read the transcript of Josh's arrest in Vancouver. He called 911 because he thought the cop(s) where harrassing him and look where he is now. Cops are for cops...period.

    Now I would like to think in Tom's position I would have again asked if I was being detained when the other cops showed up. If I got a no answer, avoidance of the question or silence I would have ignored the a-holes and went about my business like they weren't even there. I would have made THEM escalate the self-imposed confrontation they were conducting.

    Of course another way wold be to ask if they wanted to sit down and have a chat about guns and open carry, civil rights and the tough job officers face today. If they say no then techincally they ended the voluntary conversation. :-)

  22. #22
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    You can leave and then come back with 40 armed men in protest.... Tom sort of did that, but he stayed. It is a different story if you are grocery shopping. In which case I would just carry on my business until the officers left me alone. At some point, you have to keep asking "am I free to go about my private affairs?" They can ignore it all they want, and they can not answer your question, but until they say those words, "We are detaining you" or they physically stop you (which you should never resist - especially with a gun on your hip), you just keep on truckin'.

    If I were at Starbucks trying to enjoy a coffee, I would exercise the 5th. We all get the urge to talk back, which will lead to giving up. If you feel the need to talk, just ask "Is the consensual? Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" Don't tell them your rights or quote the law over and over again!

    Joe~

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I guess my point is "At what point do you give up your rights?"
    I won't leave if I'm not ready its part of their bullying tactics, it would be best to state and have it on the recording, that "I am done with this "consensual contact' any further questions or contact made by you will be considered harassment".

    That way if they continue have a clear case against them. Not that anything is clear when it comes to our messed up justice system.

  24. #24
    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Excellent point Jon...!!!!

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    I think Tom did the right thing for his particular situation. Had he tried to leave before the "back up" arrived, the first SO may have detained him right there in his car where he wouldn't have the witnesses he had inside. It's very easy for us to say what we would do, but in truth, we won't know what we will do until that situation presents itself. I'm all for discussing here on the forum so that those of us who haven't had a run in with a LEO can learn from those who have. I think it's shameful when LEOs become bullies and try to enforce their "interpretation" of the law. LEOs are duty bound to abide by the laws whether they agree with the laws or not.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


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    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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