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Thread: City parks ignoring current firearms laws (shocker)

  1. #1
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    City parks ignoring current firearms laws (shocker)

    I can't say that I'm the least bit surprised, but I figure it's worth mentioning anyway.

    I was out for a bie ride yesterday in the Reach 11 recreation area (http://www.phoenix.gov/PARKS/r11.html) as I have done numerous times in the past. It's bee a little while though, and since my last visit all of the new laws took effect including the updated state preemption and removal of the exemption for ceratin parks.

    This park, unfortunately, was already breaking the law before due to being well over 1 square mile in size and not having any 'amenities' or whatever the term was. Even so, the new law makes it pretty simple in that they can not prohibit or restrict firearms in any way any more.

    Exhibit A)


    This sign is located at the Tatum Blvd. entrance. I expected to see SOME kind of change, but that sticker with that wording was not what I had in mind. This is especially funny though when you look at another sign that has NOT been modified (by the city anyway, so ignore the graffiti.)

    Exhibit B)


    That one is located under the 51 underpass. So in summary, they replaced the already-illegal wording from the previous version of the law ("CARRYING A FIREARM IS LIMITED TO PERSONS WHO POSSESS A PERMIT ISSUES PURSUANT TO SECTION A.R.S. 13.3112.") with a sticker that is incorrect per the new laws ("CARRYING A FIREARM [span style='text-decoration: underline;']IN THIS PARK [/span] IS LIMITED TO PERSONS WHO POSSESS A PERMIT ISSUES PURSUANT TO SECTION A.R.S. 13.3112.") adding only the 'IN THIS PARK' portion.

    Phenomenal use of my tax dollars.

    Next up, I need to see if the City of Scottsdale has actually started playing ball properly as well. They've had illegal signage and policies for the McDowell Sonoran Preserve for ages and have strung folks along and ignored them when it was brought to their attention. I don't hold out too much hope that they would have proper signs now either.

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    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    For the most part, I don't think it is a matter of 'sticking it in your eye' by not changing the signage. For the most part, I do think it is a matter of the Parks & Rec people not knowing the law, or not even thinking 'how does this new law affect our department'. In some cases, it might even be a matter of budgets (ie: 'We aren't scheduled for new signs until next fiscal year' or some such).

    I know out where I work, the one community park's sign is out of compliance. I wrote a memo up the chain, to advise P&R of the change in law, and what the correct verbage should now be. I don't know how long it will take to get it changed, but I'll be following up in the next few months.

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    Everything you say may very well be 100% true in this case too, but much like it's not a defense for the average Joe to carry a firearm into a federal building because he "didn't know" about the law, it's not a defense for the city P&R department either. It's also not carte blanche to continue breaking said law even after being made aware of it. You and I don't get to say "oh, sorry, my budget won't let me come into compliance with your law right now, so it'll just have to wait." =)

    They've also obviously had it in their budget to have stickers printed up to change the wording to include "IN THIS PARK". I would imagine that it would be even quicker and cheaper to avoid the printing costs and just buy the blank stickers to cover up the section entirely as there is no new wording that they COULD legally use, other than perhaps 'carry of firearms in this park is legal' which would be rather dumb to put on a sign.

    Good advice I've found on another board, and already heeded, would be to also let the AZCDL know about your case. I'm sure that with enough concrete examples, they can get SOMEthing to happen =)
    Last edited by Thoreau; 10-05-2010 at 05:13 PM.

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Emails to lower level bureaucrats are only occasionally effective - move up the food chain and contact the city council. Better yet, attend a city council meeting with a group of like minded friends, get on the list of speakers and make your points clear and on the record - then follow through on that.

    Sometimes a simply snail mail letter to the city/county attorney is most effective. This approach actually takes less time than talking about it and gets lots better results.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Outdated signage does not have the force of law or regulation. It's merely outdated signage. I have a CWP... so I don't concern myself with other than 'No Weapons' postings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    Outdated signage does not have the force of law or regulation. It's merely outdated signage. I have a CWP... so I don't concern myself with other than 'No Weapons' postings.
    It's not about the sign having the force of law behind it. It's about the fact that they are still attempting to circumvent constitutional rights based on laws that don't exist anymore. Whether a cop would even attempt to enforce it is not even a concern to me since if they do, it's a great pay day. Either way, they are not following the law. None of us are allowed to tell the legal system 'oh, sorry, ill stop violating the law in the 2nd quarter of next year since I'm not scheduled for a policy review until then.'
    Last edited by Thoreau; 10-08-2010 at 07:16 PM.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    If you have found a problem with a city's signs and it's displaying the wrong information, notifying the fourm really won't do any good. You need to be the responsible citizen and inform the powers that be of the error and see that it gets corrected instead of hoping that someone else will do something about it.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix David View Post
    If you have found a problem with a city's signs and it's displaying the wrong information, notifying the fourm really won't do any good. You need to be the responsible citizen and inform the powers that be of the error and see that it gets corrected instead of hoping that someone else will do something about it.
    Well then, I suppose it's a good thing I already contacted the Phoenix P&R department (and the AZCDL) back on Tuesday. Of course, since they aren't responding, that's where the 'power in numbers' idea comes into play. But I suppose I shouldn't rely on a forum full of gun-rights advocates to care and put forth any effort...
    Last edited by Thoreau; 10-08-2010 at 10:08 PM.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    Well then, I suppose it's a good thing I already contacted the Phoenix P&R department (and the AZCDL) back on Tuesday. Of course, since they aren't responding, that's where the 'power in numbers' idea comes into play. But I suppose I shouldn't rely on a forum full of gun-rights advocates to care and put forth any effort...
    The strength in numbers comes from the individuals willing to each put forth the effort where they find it - not from insulting those that have the same goals.

    Is the task too daunting or do you need help. Either way, Id suggest approaching the forum differently, but that is just me.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    Well then, I suppose it's a good thing I already contacted the Phoenix P&R department (and the AZCDL) back on Tuesday. Of course, since they aren't responding, that's where the 'power in numbers' idea comes into play. But I suppose I shouldn't rely on a forum full of gun-rights advocates to care and put forth any effort...
    Since you have taken the first step you post the contacts and I'll make my voice known, and I'll let my like minded friends to make the same call.
    Last edited by Phoenix David; 10-08-2010 at 11:17 PM.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  11. #11
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    How about holding some picnics in these parks?

    Call them "we don;t need no sinkin' permit" picnics.

  12. #12
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    would be to also let the AZCDL know about your case
    I forwarded the link to this thread to my fellow Board members when it was first posted.

    If anyone wants to share something with AzCDL, the email address is info@azcdl.org. It goes to 4 of us and usually Charles Heller, AzCDL's Secretary, will respond.

    AzCDL is not an ACLU type of advocacy or "take 'em to court" organization. What we do is seek remedies and changes via legislation, and that can only be done when the legislature is in session. Between sessions, we start working on next year's bills. If we hear from y'all that there is a problem, we look to make some noise at the legislature.

    Most "wrong" signs in parks are probably because the political subdivision just hasn't gotten around, or doesn't have the money, to change the signs.

    Like others have suggested, I recommend a direct and CORDIAL approach to the folks who put the signs up. If you get the impression it's not an oversight and they are thumbing their nose at the new law, let us know so we can alert the legislature. Meanwhile, start pushing the issue up the food chain, including contacting the town/city/county council, your legislators and the governor's office.

    Fred

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