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Thread: OPEN or CONCEAL Carry and Law Enforcement

  1. #1
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    OPEN or CONCEAL Carry and Law Enforcement

    With the right to BEAR arms getting closer to being addressed and resolved in the Federal and State Courts, it is interesting to examine what is taking place across the country and here in Connecticut.

    With more and more individuals beginning to carry firearms OPENLY and CONCEALED, it appears that members of law enforcement are attempting to muddy the waters with criminal arrests for legal conduct.

    I will not attempt to list the situations I am currently aware of but will make a factual statement.

    Law enforcement is beginning to arrest law abiding citizens who carry OPENLY or CONCEALED with or without, (Depending on the state you live in), a permit to do so.

    Police officers across the country are responding to "PERSON WITH A GUN" calls made by other citizens who are not accustom to seeing armed private citizens going about their daily activities. Often when faced with legal activity, members of law enforcement still make arrests for a variety of different criminal charges, (Breach of Peace, Disorderly Conduct etc.), depending on the state where the incident occurs.

    I am beginning to believe that this is taking place by design on the part of untrained members of law enforcement who don't know how to handle the situation when they arrive on the scene.

    I am currently aware of at least 3 incidents in Connecticut, one in Massachusetts, one in Madison, Wisconsin involving 5 individuals, one in New Mexico (The St. John case), several in Pennsylvania, at least three in California and one in the state of Washington. I'm sure there are more that have gone unnoticed to those of use who discuss firearm issues.

    I believe that members of law enforcement will begin to use their arrest powers to circumvent past and future Civil Court decisions that have been or will be rendered regarding our right to BEAR arms.

    The question that the various Gun Rights organizations must begin to address is very simple.

    WHAT GOOD WILL THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS BE IF THOSE WHO DO SO ARE CONTINUALLY FACED WITH ARREST IF SOMEONE SEES A PARTIALLY CONCEALED OR OPENLY CARRIED SIDEARM?

    Those that make the decisions at the organizations that protect our firearm rights need to look into their crystal balls and plan on addressing this real world situation.
    Last edited by Edward Peruta; 10-05-2010 at 07:26 PM.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Peruta View Post

    The question that the various Gun Rights organizations must begin to address is very simple.

    WHAT GOOD WILL THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS BE IF THOSE WHO DO SO ARE CONTINUALLY FACED WITH ARREST IF SOMEONE SEES A PARTIALLY CONCEALED OR OPENLY CARRIED SIDEARM?

    Those that make the decisions at the organizations that protect our firearm rights need to look into their crystal balls and plan on addressing this real world situation.
    In Virginia, which follows common law on false arrest, one may resist with an appropriate level of force, which ultimately includes deadly force.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    In Virginia, which follows common law on false arrest, one may resist with an appropriate level of force, which ultimately includes deadly force.
    I have to wonder, does that apply to police arrests as well? Resisting arrest with force be it lawful or not will make LEO's respond with proportional force. Do you know of a case where resisting false arrest with force ended well for the person being arrested? I am not bashing law enforcement, but it is a legitimate concern as to how far we can push if police officers overstep their authority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Peruta View Post
    With the right to BEAR arms getting closer to being addressed and resolved in the Federal and State Courts, it is interesting to examine what is taking place across the country and here in Connecticut.

    With more and more individuals beginning to carry firearms OPENLY and CONCEALED, it appears that members of law enforcement are attempting to muddy the waters with criminal arrests for legal conduct.

    I will not attempt to list the situations I am currently aware of but will make a factual statement.

    Law enforcement is beginning to arrest law abiding citizens who carry OPENLY or CONCEALED with or without, (Depending on the state you live in), a permit to do so.

    Police officers across the country are responding to "PERSON WITH A GUN" calls made by other citizens who are not accustom to seeing armed private citizens going about their daily activities. Often when faced with legal activity, members of law enforcement still make arrests for a variety of different criminal charges, (Breach of Peace, Disorderly Conduct etc.), depending on the state where the incident occurs.

    I am beginning to believe that this is taking place by design on the part of untrained members of law enforcement who don't know how to handle the situation when they arrive on the scene.

    I am currently aware of at least 3 incidents in Connecticut, one in Massachusetts, one in Madison, Wisconsin involving 5 individuals, one in New Mexico (The St. John case), several in Pennsylvania, at least three in California and one in the state of Washington. I'm sure there are more that have gone unnoticed to those of use who discuss firearm issues.

    I believe that members of law enforcement will begin to use their arrest powers to circumvent past and future Civil Court decisions that have been or will be rendered regarding our right to BEAR arms.

    The question that the various Gun Rights organizations must begin to address is very simple.

    WHAT GOOD WILL THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS BE IF THOSE WHO DO SO ARE CONTINUALLY FACED WITH ARREST IF SOMEONE SEES A PARTIALLY CONCEALED OR OPENLY CARRIED SIDEARM?

    Those that make the decisions at the organizations that protect our firearm rights need to look into their crystal balls and plan on addressing this real world situation.
    Mr. Peruta,

    This is a great post! And, I agree with your question. 4A violations by LEO are a real US problem.

    markm

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    I heard of a court case (no cite) where someone was convicted of carrying concealed when the weapon was partially concealed. If you have a CCW, and carry partially concealed, is it considered concealed?
    They can't have it both ways.
    Last edited by Gundude; 10-05-2010 at 09:47 PM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I hold the OP in high regard for his activism and insightful posts.

    I'm not sure that I totally agree with the generalization that there is an escalation of such incidents overall - at least we need to put things in a proper perspective.

    As the change in political climate becomes more pronounced and more and more court cases are found in our favor, their will be a greater number of those that shall exercise their newly discovered right to OC. Initially this influx of activity is reacted to less than as desired sometimes, and education of LE and municipalities is needed. It is part of the process.

    We in Virginia went through such a period where it almost became a weekly occurrence where someone was detained or arrested - sometimes in groups. Over time this has been reduced to infrequent. almost rare, happenstance. Other areas of the country are in the early stages of this progressive curve. With persistence, they will get through this and be able to look back at the progress they have made.

    They are experiencing "growing pains" - change does not come easily. With so many areas being brought into conformity at the same time, I do not see the numbers of negative encounters as excessive. Granted that doesn't make it any easier on those so targeted and they will always have my support.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundude View Post
    I heard of a court case (no cite) where someone was convicted of carrying concealed when the weapon was partially concealed. If you have a CCW, and carry partially concealed, is it considered concealed?
    They can't have it both ways.
    Not CA but is happened:http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/s...arry-gun-case/
    ... DeFrance said Officer James Burgara asked the man if he knew his gun was showing. The young man, whom Burgara would later learn was Watson, told Burgara that it was his right to carry his gun.

    Watson, who had told officers he initially wanted to go to a store in the strip mall that was closed and was now waiting to meet a friend, had his identification and concealed weapons permit with him.
    ...
    Last edited by Wc; 10-05-2010 at 10:21 PM.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundude View Post
    I heard of a court case (no cite) where someone was convicted of carrying concealed when the weapon was partially concealed. If you have a CCW, and carry partially concealed, is it considered concealed?
    They can't have it both ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wc View Post
    Not CA but is happened:http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/s...arry-gun-case/
    ... DeFrance said Officer James Burgara asked the man if he knew his gun was showing. The young man, whom Burgara would later learn was Watson, told Burgara that it was his right to carry his gun.

    Watson, who had told officers he initially wanted to go to a store in the strip mall that was closed and was now waiting to meet a friend, had his identification and concealed weapons permit with him.
    ...
    Happened in the state of Washington - apparent appeal filed.

    Student convicted in open-carry gun case
    Hudson’s Bay graduate says he’ll appeal; trial in separate incident delayed

    Very long thread on the matter here:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ve-me-a-ticket
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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