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Philly Police directive on OC

aadvark

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
1,597
Location
, ,
eye95:

It would be interesting if Philadelphia's General Assembly would opt to remove 18 Pa.C.S 6108, concerning Open Carry in Cities of The First Class, however; I sincerely doubt that there will be any effort to do so.

In accordance with Pennsylvania Law 18 Pa.C.S. 6106, it is a Crime to Carry a Firearm either: 1. Concealed on ones Person OR 2. In any Motor Vehicle, without a Pennsylvania Valid License to Carry a Firearm.

*** The provisions of 18 Pa.C.S 6106 are similiar to Alabama Code 1975 13A-11-73, however, 18 Pa.C.S. 6106 is stricter as it covers ALL Firearms, unlike Alabama Code 1975 13A-11-73 which just covers Pistols. ***

*** Pennsylvania Law accepts ALL State-issued Permits for Motor Vehicle Carry, per 18 Pa.C.S. 6106(b)(11), however; in a curious and odd-sense, such exception does not cover Concealed Carry. Concealed Carry coverage need not be entered into any such Reciprocital Agreement, but it does have requirements under 18 Pa.C.S 6106(b)(15)(i) and 18 Pa.C.S. 6106(b)(15)(ii). ***

Pennsylvania Prohibits Carry during a declared State of Emergency under 18 Pa.C.S. 1607(a), unless such Person is Defending Himself from a threat, OR such Person has a License to Carry a Firearm under either/both: 18 Pa.C.S. 1607(a)(1) AND 18 Pa.C.S. 1607(a)(2).

*** Remeber the provisions of 18 Pa.C.S. 6106(15)(i) and 18 Pa.C.S.6106(15)(ii) for the purposes of Reciprocity. ***

Pennsylvania Prohibits the Registration of Firearms that are Privately-owned, per 18 Pa.C.S. 6111.4.

Pennsylvania Prohibits the Possesion of ANY Firearm by ANYONE less than 18 years old, per Pa.C.S. 6110.1(a), except as provided under 18 Pa.C.S 6110.1(b), which; in turn, mimics Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 922(x).

Pennsylvania Law allows Persons to be Licensed, consistent to Alabama Law, per 18 Pa.C.S. 6109.

Pennsylvania has a Law that Preempts Firearm-related Laws solely to the CommonWealth of Pennsylvania, per 18 Pa.C.S. 6120.

*** Pennsylvania Law Prohibits the Possesion of Firearms in Primary or Secondary Public, Private, or Parochial School Buildings, or their Grounds, or School Buses, except for 'Lawful Purposes', per 18 Pa.C.S. 912. The term 'Lawful Purposes' is NOT defined, and there is NO Locker exception as under 18 Pa.C.S. 913, as such Pennsylvania Law is discussed below***

*** Pennsylvania Law Prohibits the Possesion of Firearms in CourtHouses by Private Persons, except that the Firearms Carried pursuant to a Pennsylvania License to Carry a Firearm, or its equilvalent, as discussed above, are able to be secured in a Locker upon arrival at the CourtHouse, pursuant to 18 Pa.C.S. 913(e). ALL CourtHouses have to follow this procedure, therefore; in theory, the ONLY place that is OFF-LIMITS for Firearms throughout Pennsylvania is the Schools discussed above. ***

aadvark

P.S.: As for my Personnal Opinion, Pennsylvania is a VERY Pro-Firearm State for a Northern State, and that Surprised me very much indeed!
 

swinokur

Activist Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
917
Location
Montgomery County, MD
PA UFA exempts cities of the first class (over 1 mil population) from unlicensed OC. You can CC or OC with a permit. McDonald affirms the right to carry in the home but was somewhat vague on carry outside the home. more litigation will have to resolve that
 

bill gray

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
32
Location
Penna
Checkmating Reasonable Articulable Suspicion against Phila Police

What would it do to RAS in Phila if OCers had a reduced size copy of their LTCF laminated and attached to their holster plus a full size copy (notarized?) hanging from a chain around their neck?? Would PPD be able to defend taking an OCer at gunpoint, disarming him/her and detaining the OCer with the LTCF staring them in the face? An OCer would have to orally alert the PPD what the documents are and request/demand that they examine them before violating the carrier's rights. Naturally, the OCer should have the original in their possession too to back up the copies. I have the old image in mind of a cameraman or reporter with a PRESS card in the headband of their hat. (Yeah, it is a black and white image from old movies.)
 

Mr.FiredUp

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
164
Location
Adams County, Pennsylvania, USA
What would it do to RAS in Phila if OCers had a reduced size copy of their LTCF laminated and attached to their holster plus a full size copy (notarized?) hanging from a chain around their neck?? Would PPD be able to defend taking an OCer at gunpoint, disarming him/her and detaining the OCer with the LTCF staring them in the face? An OCer would have to orally alert the PPD what the documents are and request/demand that they examine them before violating the carrier's rights. Naturally, the OCer should have the original in their possession too to back up the copies. I have the old image in mind of a cameraman or reporter with a PRESS card in the headband of their hat. (Yeah, it is a black and white image from old movies.)

I like your thought here. As a PA resident (about 4 hours from Philadelphia), I'd like to see a large OC meet there. It's about time we had some recognition in a big way. There have been a little spur in that direction for some time on PAFOA.org and I'd like to see it happen soon.

I'm going to look further in to what you suggested here and try to organize an OC meet in "the city of the first class" come some "more climate OC weather". With the way the election results are going so far here, it might not be a bad idea this spring. We might just have some back-up in office;).
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
The logic of the police directive fails when compared to driver's licensing - can an officer know who is licensed? no.

Can an officer stop a car to check license? No. See Delaware v. Prouse.

Ergo, it violates the 4th Amendment to seize an open carrier just to check the license.

Can somebody in PA trake this on? We need a lawsuit to clear this up.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
What would it do to RAS in Phila if OCers had a reduced size copy of their LTCF laminated and attached to their holster plus a full size copy (notarized?) hanging from a chain around their neck?? Would PPD be able to defend taking an OCer at gunpoint, disarming him/her and detaining the OCer with the LTCF staring them in the face?

Wrong venue. Discussing the law with an LEO works only when the LEO is in a relaxed environment and is genuinely interested in hearing what the law has to say. Even in a message forum such as officer.com, things can be touchy.

In the venue of a confrontation, however, any such discussion of the law, or of telling the LEO what he or she can or cannot do comes across to them as telling them how to do their job, something which exceedingly few humans tolerate well.

If you'd like to reach the hearts and minds of Philly LEO, seek out the message forums they frequent, and attempt to reach them there, using logic, reason, and the rule of law.

While exercising one's 2A rights is usually a good thing, intentionally confronting or arguing with anti-carry LEO's on the street is ill-advisable.

The issue here should not be whether the police are authorized to stop the carrier, but why would OC require a permit in Philadelphia? This requirement is where the infringement occurred. The stop is a lawful extension of what I would say is an unconstitutional infringement.

Well said!
 
Last edited:

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
The logic of the police directive fails when compared to driver's licensing - can an officer know who is licensed? no.

Can an officer stop a car to check license? No. See Delaware v. Prouse.

Ergo, it violates the 4th Amendment to seize an open carrier just to check the license.

Can somebody in PA trake this on? We need a lawsuit to clear this up.

Oh, and i forgot a nother big issue - police seizure of guns even in legal Terry stops must be predicated upon a second factor BEYOND reasonable suspicion of crime afoot. i.e., that the person is both "armed and presently dangerous."

I think a lot of folks miss this and this part of the police policy is unconstitutional on its face.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
The logic of the police directive fails when compared to driver's licensing - can an officer know who is licensed? no.

Can an officer stop a car to check license? No. See Delaware v. Prouse.

Ergo, it violates the 4th Amendment to seize an open carrier just to check the license.

Can somebody in PA trake this on? We need a lawsuit to clear this up.

Interesting read and thanks for the cite Mike.

Quick question would this effect randomly checking and running people because they were carrying a gun and then giving them a ticket not related to that? That has just happened to me.

I got the copy of the police reports and even though the judge said there was PC I can't see it, although the LEO was very dishonest in his whole report. On the phone he said my gun drew his attention to me, but weeks later when I got the reports he changed his story and said it was "suspiciously nervous" behavior.

Also I been looking into Brady vs. Maryland it seems to me that it is illegal for cops to lie or be misleading on their reports because it can sway a jury. Yet every report I have every read are full of both.

Catch phrases like "agitated, nervous, suspicous, uncooperative, etc".
 

Fuller Malarkey

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
1,020
Location
The Cadre
The "Terry Stops" in Philly has drawn the attention of the ACLU of PA.

ACLU files lawsuit challenging 'stop and frisk' searches in Philadelphia

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/04/AR2010110408055.html

Holy moly. In the lawsuit, the ACLU cites city data showing that 253,333 pedestrians were stopped and searched last year. Those are the ones reported.

Posted on Fri, Nov. 5, 2010

City's 'stop and frisk' policy draws lawsuit

By WENDY RUDERMAN, BARBARA LAKER & CATHERINE LUCEY
Philadelphia Daily News

The class-action lawsuit - filed in federal court by the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania and the law firm of Kairys, Rudovsky, Messing & Feinberg - claims that Nutter and Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey "instituted more aggressive stop-and-frisk practices," and then, "with deliberate indifference," failed to properly train, supervise and discipline officers who routinely violate civil rights.

"These unconstitutional actions have had and continue to have a devastating effect on the lives of many Philadelphians," attorney Paul Messing said. "Beyond that, these police practices have had no real impact on stemming criminal conduct in our city. They just subject innocent people to humiliating and degrading treatment."

The suit was filed on behalf of eight black and Latino men, including state Rep. Jewell Williams, a former Temple University police officer who plans to run for city sheriff in next year's Democratic primary.

Officers handcuffed Williams in March 2009 and placed him into the back seat of a squad car after he inquired about the well-being of two elderly men whom police had detained - then subsequently released - during a car stop in Williams' North Philly neighborhood.

Williams, who was stopped about three car-lengths back, said he emerged from his state-leased Chrysler after he overheard an officer threatening to beat up one of the elderly men. Williams alleged that another officer ordered him to "get back in the f---ing car," even though Williams said he identified himself as a state legislator.

In an interview yesterday, Williams said the nightmarish incident "was like a flashback to the civil-rights era."

"You can command attention and respect without calling a person an 'm-effer,' " Williams said. "When you use 'm-effer' and all kinds of words like that, what comes next is pushing and shoving. . . . Those are words that, in my opinion, were used in slavery days."

When asked how the lawsuit might affect his bid for sheriff, Williams said he hoped that voters would want a sheriff who stands up for their civil rights and wouldn't "turn his head to bad things."

Read more: http://www.philly.com/dailynews/loc...risk__policy_draws_lawsuit.html#ixzz14iLgsy85
Watch sports videos you won't find anywhere else

Just a little more fuel to add to the fire:

Rep. Jewell Williams sues cops, city over '09 incident

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/loc...lliams_sues_cops__city_over__09_incident.html
 

Nevada carrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
1,293
Location
The Epicenter of Freedom
they do but Philly was exempted because of population.

To be more specific, they were exempted because of their minority population; But that's just my opinion. I personally belove the motivation for treating Philly differently than the rest of the state is a kin to higher penalties for rock cocaine as opposed to powder. IMHO the higher the crime rate more the people need to arm themselves.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
The suit was filed on behalf of eight black and Latino men...

I'm a blue-eyed, blond-haired white guy, but I'll be happy to support this action...

What the dickens does race have to do with this? Are 100% of the 200,000+ citizens whose civil rights were violated by unreasonable search and seizure all black and latino?

Gotta hand it to the ACLU: Sometimes you love to hate them. At other times, you hate to love them.

...including state Rep. Jewell Williams,

...

When asked how the lawsuit might affect his bid for sheriff, Williams said he hoped that voters would want a sheriff who stands up for their civil rights and wouldn't "turn his head to bad things."

He's certainly got my attention! How does he stand on 2A and OC/CC rights?
 

I hate MD

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
18
Location
Ellicott City, Maryland, USA
Pennsylvania new police directive "twist of words"

Police directive sent to all districts regarding open carry in Philadelphia, PA Sept 22, 2010

GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20

TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
SUBJECT : CAR OPEN DRIVING LAW IN PHILADELPHIA

1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “CARS” IS BEING UPDATED
CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA DRIVING LAWS
REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
DIRECTIVE.

2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
CONSIDERED AN “OPEN DRIVING STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:

“OPEN DRIVING” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
DRIVING A CAR BY ONE’S PERSON WITH THE TOP DOWN.

“OPEN DRIVING STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY DRIVING A CAR BY ONE’S
PERSON WITH THE TOP DOWN WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.

“CONCEALED DRIVING CAR LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO DRIVE A CAR CONCEALED BY HIS OR HER PERSON WITH THE TOP UP

3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY DRIVE A
CAR, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED DRIVING
CAR LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED DRIVING CAR LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY DRIVE A CAR EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.

4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON DRIVING A CAR
OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED DRIVING LICENSE, IT
IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL DRIVING A
CAR EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
OPERATING WITH THE LAW.

B. IMMEDIATLEY SEIZE ANY CAR FOR OFFICER SAFETY
DURING THE STOP AND REMOVE THE KEYS FROM THE CAR IF POSSIBLE,
BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY.

C. A 75-48A MUST BE COMPLETED AND THE BASIS FOR THE STOP
WOULD BE A “POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION”


D. ONCE THE OFFICER RECEIVES CONFIRMATION THAT THE
CONCEALED DRIVING LICENSE IS VALID, AND THERE ARE NO
OTHER OFFENSE OR VIOLATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED,
OFFICERS SHOULD RETURN THE CAR AND KEYS
BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE END OF THE STOP.

E. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL CANNOT PRODUCE A VALID
CONCEALED DRVING LICENSE OR THE LICENSE IS NOT VALID
(I.E. EXPIRED OR REVOKED), PROBABLE CAUSE THEN EXISTS
TO ARREST THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE VUFAVIOLATION AND
TRANSPORT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE DIVISIONAL DETECTIVES
FOR PROCESSING. THE CAR AND KEYS SHOULD
BE PLACED ON A PROPERTY RECEIPT (75-3) AND MARKED AS
“ EVIDENCE”. A 75-48A FOR THE INITIAL STOP MUST BE
PREPARD ALONG WITH A 75-48 FOR THE VUFA ARREST.
 

I hate MD

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
18
Location
Ellicott City, Maryland, USA
Pennsylvania new police directive "twist of words"

Police directive sent to all districts regarding open driving in Philadelphia, PA Sept 22, 2010

GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20

TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
SUBJECT : CAR OPEN DRIVING LAW IN PHILADELPHIA

1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “CARS” IS BEING UPDATED
CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA DRIVING LAWS
REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
DIRECTIVE.

2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
CONSIDERED AN “OPEN DRIVING STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:

“OPEN DRIVING” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
DRIVING A CAR BY ONE’S PERSON WITH THE TOP DOWN.

“OPEN DRIVING STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY DRIVING A CAR BY ONE’S
PERSON WITH THE TOP DOWN WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.

“CONCEALED DRIVING CAR LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO DRIVE A CAR CONCEALED BY HIS OR HER PERSON WITH THE TOP UP

3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY DRIVE A
CAR, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED DRIVING
CAR LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED DRIVING CAR LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY DRIVE A CAR EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.

4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON DRIVING A CAR
OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED DRIVING LICENSE, IT
IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL DRIVING A
CAR EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
OPERATING WITH THE LAW.

B. IMMEDIATLEY SEIZE ANY CAR FOR OFFICER SAFETY
DURING THE STOP AND REMOVE THE KEYS FROM THE CAR IF POSSIBLE,
BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY.

C. A 75-48A MUST BE COMPLETED AND THE BASIS FOR THE STOP
WOULD BE A “POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION”


D. ONCE THE OFFICER RECEIVES CONFIRMATION THAT THE
CONCEALED DRIVING LICENSE IS VALID, AND THERE ARE NO
OTHER OFFENSE OR VIOLATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED,
OFFICERS SHOULD RETURN THE CAR AND KEYS
BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE END OF THE STOP.

E. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL CANNOT PRODUCE A VALID
CONCEALED DRVING LICENSE OR THE LICENSE IS NOT VALID
(I.E. EXPIRED OR REVOKED), PROBABLE CAUSE THEN EXISTS
TO ARREST THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE VUFAVIOLATION AND
TRANSPORT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE DIVISIONAL DETECTIVES
FOR PROCESSING. THE CAR AND KEYS SHOULD
BE PLACED ON A PROPERTY RECEIPT (75-3) AND MARKED AS
“ EVIDENCE”. A 75-48A FOR THE INITIAL STOP MUST BE
PREPARD ALONG WITH A 75-48 FOR THE VUFA ARREST.
 

Statkowski

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,141
Location
Cherry Tree (Indiana County), Pennsylvania, USA
PA law exempts Philly because it mentions a certain population size. Not sure of number but Philly is the only qualifies for the exemption.

Pa. law does not "exempt" Philadelphia from anything. Open carry is legal throughout the Commonwealth, so says the Pa. Supreme Court. Concealed carry requires one possess either an LTCF, be exempt, or possess a license/permit recognized by Pennsylvania.

Section 6108 of the UFA, however, does state that one needs an LTCF in order to Open Carry in Philadelphia (an LTCF is not required for such anywhere else in the state). This is because (don't snicker) Philadelphia is a City of the First Class (population 1,000,000 or more). Philadelphia is the only city in the state with a population over 1,000,000.
 
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