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right to protect property with lethal force

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Tomas

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I know I shouldn't 'feed the trolls,' but I'll toss a handful in, anyway...

First off, if someone breaks into my home, they are not breaking in to ask the time or compliment me on my decorating.

By breaking into my home they are clearly demonstrating to me the intent to do ill.

If I or my family are in the home when they break into it I cannot rationally assume they do not intend injury to me and mine.

As soon as they actually manage to get in without invitation, my objective will be to STOP them from proceeding any further as I will 'be in fear for my life.'

I am not protecting my possessions, I am protecting life and limb from an uninvited, unwanted intruder.

By breaking in they have shown themselves to be a danger.

Game over.
 
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Spartacus

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Why would I not defend against the unlawful attempt of someone trying to take my property?
Unlike the OP, I cherish what I own, I worked hard for it and I am not about to let some criminal take it away from me without proper compensation.

Yes I will threaten life and limb to defend my property, and if the person who is trying to take it from me tries to get violent in the process, then they will get violence back.

Letting someone steal your property without you resisting seems like wanting to live in "Victim Mode" like so many of the liberals do these days. I refuse to be a victim!

This is what you get for "thinking and talking" about options without consideration of the law of the land. Nutsak here is more than willing to go to prison for murder if someone tries to steal his steak knife set. Fine by me.

Wanna talk about shooting someone that pisses you off in traffic? Thats a cool subject.

Nutczak? What say you?
 
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Shotgun

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The statute is relevant because any well-reasoned "thoughts" about the topic will include consideration of what sort of actions may result in your loss of freedom.

Not sure about the lack of a "castle doctrine" being important. Most castle doctrine laws don't allow you to shoot someone simply because they are unwelcome in your home. And many such laws still require it to be in defense of life, not simply property. One's property can be in jeopardy anywhere, not just in the home, car or business.

Legal matters aside, taking a human life is quite a serious matter. Once that bullet is launched towards another person there's no way to recall it or to will it off it's trajectory. The outcome is out of your hands and irreversible. Your property is replaceable, a person's life is not. If I'm going to shoot somebody, it is because I had to do it, not simply because I was able to do it.
 
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JG

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When I read posts like this the Ct. thing comes to mind. That Doctor should have had somthing to protect his wife and two daughters. If someone breaks into my house and I mean BREAKS IN, Im going to shoot the bastard. Im not going to wait and see if he just wants my TV. I feel mine and wives lives are worth more than his. I think this whole conversation is a bunch BS. JG
 

Spartacus

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When I read posts like this the Ct. thing comes to mind. That Doctor should have had somthing to protect his wife and two daughters. If someone breaks into my house and I mean BREAKS IN, Im going to shoot the bastard. Im not going to wait and see if he just wants my TV. I feel mine and wives lives are worth more than his. I think this whole conversation is a bunch BS. JG

You would maybe share a cell with Nutsak if you were in Wisconsin for manslaughter then.

There are a lot of things you can do short of shooting a hole in the guy. Run for starters. Yell at the intruder and tell him you are calling the cops. Rack the slide of a shotgun. Fire a couple of shots into the floor.

As someone who has successfully defended himself with a hand gun I can say that Shotgun is absolutely correct when he says:

Legal matters aside, taking a human life is quite a serious matter. Once that bullet is launched towards another person there's no way to recall it or to will it off it's trajectory. The outcome is out of your hands and irreversible. Your property is replaceable, a person's life is not. If I'm going to shoot somebody, it is because I had to do it, not simply because I was able to do it.
 

AaronS

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This is what you get for "thinking and talking" about options without consideration of the law of the land. Nutsak here is more than willing to go to prison for murder if someone tries to steal his steak knife set. Fine by me.

Wanna talk about shooting someone that pisses you off in traffic? Thats a cool subject.

Nutcsak? What say you?

Hate to have to say this in a public forum, but Yes Spartacus. If I were to come home, and find you in my house, with MY steak knifes in your hands, you would be taken away in a bag. No way in the world would I wait for you to start useing my own knifes against me. Good thing I will have people like Nutsak to play cards with I guess...
But...
If it were my TV, or some other object that won't hurt me as bad as a set of knifes? All I can say is that if you show no threat to me, I would let the cops deal with you. Now the problem for me is the fact that you (Spartacus), are a lot larger then I am. I can see only one way for a man my size to "stop and hold" you until the police get to my home, and that is with a gun. Any other way, and I risk a real a$$ kicking in my own home... And now you have my knifes, and guns...

Shotgun is right. "If I'm going to shoot somebody, it is because I had to do it, not simply because I was able to do it.".

I could only add that I hope to God, none of us have to face this. Bad people suk.
 
M

McX

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guys, if i may; your welcome to defend against each other, but if you would; please let the criminals that owe me money live, so that i might collect.

what do you say when you come down stairs at 3 am, and find your TV floating across the living room? Freeze sucker!
 

J.Gleason

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This thread brings to mind the case of the old man over in Ripon who caught some guy in his house trying to steal his property for I believe the 2nd time. This old man held the criminal at gun point while on the phone to 911.
Sounds like deadly force to me. The old man was in the local paper and all over the news as a hero.

You can listen to it here:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/46733292.html
 

Spartacus

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This thread brings to mind the case of the old man over in Ripon who caught some guy in his house trying to steal his property for I believe the 2nd time. This old man held the criminal at gun point while on the phone to 911.
Sounds like deadly force to me. The old man was in the local paper and all over the news as a hero.

You can listen to it here:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/46733292.html

Oh thats fine to hold someone in a citizens arrest but if he had shot the guy the story might have played out differently.

You guys that wanna shoot someone for stealing your steak knife set oughta think again. If you kill or wound the perpetrator you may be paying for his medical bills and family for the rest of your life after his relatives sue you in civil court due to his loss of income. The courts are pretty screwed up in this regard.
 

Nutczak

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Oh thats fine to hold someone in a citizens arrest but if he had shot the guy the story might have played out differently.

You guys that wanna shoot someone for stealing your steak knife set oughta think again. If you kill or wound the perpetrator you may be paying for his medical bills and family for the rest of your life after his relatives sue you in civil court due to his loss of income. The courts are pretty screwed up in this regard.

Where did I or anyone say they would immediately shoot someone for stealing, Is your reading comprehension lacking so terribly that you can barely understand written words?
Why don't you go back through this thread and read it over, because it obviously takes you a little longer than the rest of the class.

COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack

I simply stated I would defend my property, and if the offender got violent with me, he would receive violence back.
I really look forward to the day we meet face to face, just to see how much your demeanor changes when not sitting behind a keyboard enjoying separation and anonymity.
 

J.Gleason

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Oh thats fine to hold someone in a citizens arrest but if he had shot the guy the story might have played out differently.

You guys that wanna shoot someone for stealing your steak knife set oughta think again. If you kill or wound the perpetrator you may be paying for his medical bills and family for the rest of your life after his relatives sue you in civil court due to his loss of income. The courts are pretty screwed up in this regard.

The Point I was making is that just drawing your firearm is in fact an act of deadly force. Pointing said firearm at a person is another act of deadly force and of course firing would be another act of its own.


939.49 Defense of property and protection against
retail theft. (1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally
use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating
what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful
interference with the person’s property. Only such degree of force
or threat thereof may intentionally be used as the actor reasonably
believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference......"It
is not reasonable to intentionally use force intended or likely to
cause death or great bodily harm for the sole purpose of defense
of one’s property."

Even pointing a gun at someone is force intended to cause death. I.E. Accidental/Negligent discharges.
Here is the same point I have made time and time again. We must not read to much into these statutes. Do not elaborate, read them for what they say in print and nothing more.

In this case I believe this is not how this statute was meant to be taken. Henceforth the Ripon case.
 

Giant81

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Here is the way I see it.

I won't kill you for
trying to steal my TV
trying to steal my car
trying to take my computer

Though I may try to scare you off, or make you go away, I won't use deadly force.

It's all insured and I'll just by another.

But as soon as you become a threat to my wife, kids, or myself, I'll drop you like a ton of bricks. I have no problem with the idea of killing another person if it means protecting myself or my family. I also have no problem dealing with the legal ramifications of doing so. Hey, the way I see it, my family or myself are still here.

So for me, that is where I draw the line. I will not use deadly force to protect property that can easily be replace, but will in no way hesitate to use it if someones life is in danger.
 

Spartacus

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Here is the way I see it.

I won't kill you for
trying to steal my TV
trying to steal my car
trying to take my computer

Though I may try to scare you off, or make you go away, I won't use deadly force.

It's all insured and I'll just by another.

But as soon as you become a threat to my wife, kids, or myself, I'll drop you like a ton of bricks. I have no problem with the idea of killing another person if it means protecting myself or my family. I also have no problem dealing with the legal ramifications of doing so. Hey, the way I see it, my family or myself are still here.

So for me, that is where I draw the line. I will not use deadly force to protect property that can easily be replace, but will in no way hesitate to use it if someones life is in danger.

Well there it is. A reasoned and well intentioned response.

Welcome to the forum.
 

The Don

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One may use a reasonable amount of force to protect property. By law however, deadly force is never considered reasonable to only protect property.

That said, if one were to order an intruder out of one's home at gun point, and they did not immediately leave, one might reasonably believe that they aren't there only for the TV and jewelry.

I will not use deadly force to protect property that can easily be replace, but will in no way hesitate to use it if someones life is in danger.

I think these two posts (snippets of posts) sum it up best for me. Particularly the end of Shotgun's post...(paraphrasing) if someone's in my house and i tell them to leave and they don't... i'm going to err on the side of protecting myself, my wife and my two (soon, it'll be two) daughters and deal with the legal consequences after.

Here's a follow-up question...if you catch a burglar in your house with only a flashlight and a sack of your stuff, that's one thing. if you catch a burglar in your house with a flashlight and a sack of your stuff and you can plainly see a handgun in the waistband of his pants doesn't that really make it pretty clear that he (or she, i suppose) came into your house with the intent to do harm?
 

Hunting Mama

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I am sorry, but if someone breaks into my home where my family is I am not going to ask him first if he is just here for the tv or for other not so nice reasons. Now don't get me wrong, I will not just let the lead fly. The threat of a weapon in itself will do a lot, but I physically can't run away so I have no option than to hold my ground. If the s.o.b. turns to leave - they law can deal with that and if I get in trouble for using my gun to protect my family, so be it. I am willing to take those consequences. If they are stupid enough to cross the line and advance, well I am real sorry for their family, but it was a poor decision to come into my home unwelcome. I am not a mind reader or an x-ray machine so I don't know what their intention would be, but that is where reading the situation and having self control comes in.
 

Spartacus

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Where did I or anyone say they would immediately shoot someone for stealing, Is your reading comprehension lacking so terribly that you can barely understand written words?
Why don't you go back through this thread and read it over, because it obviously takes you a little longer than the rest of the class.

COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack

I simply stated I would defend my property, and if the offender got violent with me, he would receive violence back.
I really look forward to the day we meet face to face, just to see how much your demeanor changes when not sitting behind a keyboard enjoying separation and anonymity.

Where I come from this is the beginning of love talk.

It would be helpful if you posted some pics preferably nudes and don't forget that I never kiss on the first date.
 

Spartacus

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Here's a follow-up question...if you catch a burglar in your house with only a flashlight and a sack of your stuff, that's one thing. if you catch a burglar in your house with a flashlight and a sack of your stuff and you can plainly see a handgun in the waistband of his pants doesn't that really make it pretty clear that he (or she, i suppose) came into your house with the intent to do harm?

A cop would wait until the perp menaced or went for the gun before firing.

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Rule 15
 

The Don

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A cop would wait until the perp menaced or went for the gun before firing.

If you are ever going to do this make sure you kill the perp dead. Then its just your word on how it went down.

I'm not sure if you were implying I, or anyone, would intentionally seek a situation like this out, but, to be absolutely clear, I would IN NO WAY seek a situation like this out (if that were even possible), nor would I relish being in a situation such as is being discussed if it I were ever to find myself in such a situation. I would give the criminal every reasonable opportunity to disengage, but not at the cost of my, or my family's, safety.
 

JG

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Spartacus,: If you were ever the victum of a violent crime you might see things a little different. My wife was many years ago and I was in 1990. Its something you never forget and even today I still have a problem going to some places. But maybe Im just a wimp and not a big sword swinger like you. JG
 
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