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Thread: Who needs a gun in a "bar and grill" ?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Who needs a gun in a "bar and grill" ?

    Woman stabbed to death in a Fairfax bar and grill - http://www.nbc12.com/Global/story.asp?S=13283281
    James Reynolds

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Awful story...

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Woman stabbed to death in a Fairfax bar and grill - http://www.nbc12.com/Global/story.asp?S=13283281
    Now. YOU are present in that bar when the man draws his knife and attacks the woman. You are armed, OC or CC. Do you take action to prevent the killing?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Now. YOU are present in that bar when the man draws his knife and attacks the woman. You are armed, OC or CC. Do you take action to prevent the killing?
    Depends on too many circumstances to give a text book answer....
    James Reynolds

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Depends on too many circumstances to give a text book answer....
    +1

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Agreed...

    However, if he took one step toward ME with his bloody knife, and made eye contact, I firmly believe THAT would be a justifiable SD situation...

    I think I've actually eaten at this place--if memory serves, they've got a pretty good Vietnamese menu, and it's REALLY authentic. Not many "anglos" eat there though, mostly frequented (and staffed) by REALLY recent immigrants.

    Good ethnic food, but don't expect to strike up any conversations with the patrons there, unless you're fluent in Vietnamese...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    However, if he took one step toward ME with his bloody knife, and made eye contact, I firmly believe THAT would be a justifiable SD situation...
    Knife needn't even be bloody.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Depends on too many circumstances to give a text book answer....
    You don't have too long to figure out what you're going to do though....Split-second decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
    You don't have too long to figure out what you're going to do though....Split-second decision.
    Is the knife pointed in a direction that appears threatening? Is he trying to conceal or dispose of the knife, or displaying it threateningly?

    Nonetheless less my weapon will have more than likely been drawn, or at least have broken the retention the moment he came at her. At that point, over-preparedness and being paranoid are not part of the equation and it's time to consider protecting myself. Are there particular good samaritan laws in place to protect you legally if you were to fire on someone attacking another person (the victim, in this case)?

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    The right to use deadly force to protect others being attacked with the use of deadly force is clearly established. The only thought going through my mind would be, what's beyond the attacker...if I miss, is there a possiblilty of hitting someone at a booth or table...or through a window sitting in a car at a stop light, or someone else rushing to help the person, etc? If the answer to any of those questions is "yes," then it would be, can I move myself into a postition to eliminate that risk? If I am in, or can get myself in, a position where there is no risk of hitting an innocent bystander...it would suck to be the attacker.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fully_armed_biker View Post
    The right to use deadly force to protect others being attacked with the use of deadly force is clearly established. The only thought going through my mind would be, what's beyond the attacker...if I miss, is there a possiblilty of hitting someone at a booth or table...or through a window sitting in a car at a stop light, or someone else rushing to help the person, etc? If the answer to any of those questions is "yes," then it would be, can I move myself into a postition to eliminate that risk? If I am in, or can get myself in, a position where there is no risk of hitting an innocent bystander...it would suck to be the attacker.
    When resorting to the use of justifiable deadly force and the victim accidentally hits an innocent party, he cannot be held legally responsible for this. The perp is the one who will get charged. However, the victim may possibly suffer a suit in a civil court for his actions. This by no means doesn't mean one should not exercise good judgment and prudence when and where at all possible and try to take whatever measures to minimize danger to innocent persons. But in the heat of a sudden firefight, time and a deadly encounter do not suffer hesitation and prudence, unfortunately.

    INAL.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 10-08-2010 at 12:20 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Well, in this situation I wouldn't be the "victim," I'd be a good samaritan coming to the aid of another. Whether I could or couldn't be held legally responsible for any "incidental damage" I don't think would give much solace to the family of the victim of such incidental damage...and a responsibility I would only accept in the most dire of circumstances, like the Luby's massacre in Killeen, TX, or the MacDonald's massacre in San Ysidro, CA.

    I also know I'm a pretty damned good shot so it would take extraordinary circumstances for me not to make the shot...but, I also know I have no control over what others do when pandemonium breaks out.

    At the very least I would arm myself with a chair and hopefully be in a position to leave a size 10 motorcycle boot imprint on the attacker's forehead, if I were coming to the aid of another.
    Last edited by fully_armed_biker; 10-08-2010 at 01:11 PM.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fully_armed_biker View Post
    Well, in this situation I wouldn't be the "victim," I'd be a good samaritan coming to the aid of another. Whether I could or couldn't be held legally responsible for any "incidental damage" I don't think would give much solace to the family of the victim of such incidental damage...and a responsibility I would only accept in the most dire of circumstances, like the Luby's massacre in Killeen, TX, or the MacDonald's massacre in San Ysidro, CA.

    I also know I'm a pretty damned good shot so it would take extraordinary circumstances for me not to make the shot...but, I also know I have no control over what others do when pandemonium breaks out.

    At the very least I would arm myself with a chair and hopefully be in a position to leave a size 10 motorcycle boot imprint on the attacker's forehead, if I were coming to the aid of another.
    The laws of defending another are essentially the same as those for defending oneself. So if the victim is not in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, or worse, one is not justified in using deadly force in their defense.

    As for hitting an innocent person, I imagine that would be one of the most sinking feelings a reasonable person could experience and one which I know I hope never to experience myself... regardless of any legal protections or such. But the fact remains that when in an extreme situation, a victim has enough on his mind just trying to survive the encounter. The legal and civil business comes later... which can easily make a horrible situation that much worse.

    Actually the posed question is a good one and keeps coming up on this and other sites from time to time. I tend to believe that unless someone has been through such a situation in the past, or something quite similar, they most likely don't really know how they are going to react when it is happening like right now.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    As for hitting an innocent person, I imagine that would be one of the most sinking feelings a reasonable person could experience
    We Southron are intimately familiar with this quandary.

    Others do not seem to be quite as constrained by such issues of conscience.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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