Blog post from an AZ-anti

mFonz77 said:

OC/CC it is still a responsibility, and like Uncle Ben says, "With great power comes great responsibility." Everyone should take it upon themselves to posses at least a rudimentary skill-at-arms if they're going to carry.

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The heaviest thing about wearing a gun is the responsbility that comes with it. A CCW permit, and the training for it, doesn't translate to "competency" with a handgun. It's great to know AZ law and gun safety, but that doesn't mean a person has even the fundamental skill at arms to use that tool hanging on their belt.

Hopefully, now that people are no longer wedded to the government mandated training (minimum required = maximum achieved) they can spend their money on places like Front Sight (my preference) and Gunsite that teach them the skill at arms that goes along with the responsibilty of being armed.

Fred

azcdlfred said:

I remember reading an article posted on Free Republic where a legislator in TN was proposing Constitutional Carry.

And, you are right, the resistance from gun owners will be a real jaw-dropper. Here in Arizona it came from many supposedly friendly fronts (we have found the enemy and it is us).

The "training cartel" that suckled at the government teat created by the mandated training and state "annointment" of instructors was (and still is) furious over their loss of what they perceived as an entitlement.

Then the "I got mine, you should get yours" attitude from CCW holders was an eye opener. Then, there was the group that insisted that there was a difference between open carry (no training required) and discreet carry that required training. And, it was amazing how many bought into the mindset that it's best for their government masters to determine who should and should not be able to carry a gun in a state where open carry has been Constitutional for almost 100 years.

If you want to see it done in TN, I recommend a transition from the "they oughta, wanna, shoulda do this," to "I" will do something about this and get other people who want to move from bitching and moaning to actually getting things done. That means drafting legislation, "selling" it to friendly legislators, tesitying in committee hearings and rabble rousing to make a lot of noise. Expect to find your dick in the dirt, but remember, when you fall on your face you are still moving forward. Get up, dust off and get back in the fight. It took AzCDL 5 years to get Constitutional Carry. We "incrementalized" our progress with small victories (ask for the stars and accept the planets) every year until finally everything aligned and we were able to go for the brass ring. It CAN be done!

Fred

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Ok, so I have a question--who in AZ drafted the initial legislation--was it a coop of AZ OC'ers, the AZCDL--which we don't have anything along the lines of a AZcdl or VCDL here in Tennessee--I assume you mean the AZ citizens defense league? What we have here is the "Tennessee Firearms Association"--which is only interested in maintaining the status quo as it is and keeping their sacred cow otherwise known as the Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit intact--it is about money here and not about training. The state of Tennessee could not care less whether you do or do not know how to use a gun--the state likes that $115 Tennessee permit application fee they get--plus an additional $50 every time you renew--every 4yrs..It is also about the "training course" you take which can run from $50-125, the fingerprint fee of $3 and if you don't own a gun then you have to pay an additional $15-25 for the rental.

Now all of the wonderful news about that "training" you take that everyone here and everywhere else just stands in awe of--it is an 8hr class. 4 hours you sit in a classroom with your pistol on the table (unloaded of course), listen to a boring video, watch a nice police officer demonstrate how to properly hold a gun, they tell you about the Tennessee Code Annotated as it relates to self-defense, defense of a third person and so on, they tell you about how the Handgun carry permit is a "defense" to the charge of "going armed with the intent to go armed" in this state, and how CC is good, while OC is horribly bad although perfectly legal and that you WILL get detained and questioned if they see you OC here.....THEN you get to go out to the range about 30 miles away deep in the woods and there you get to fire your pistol I think it was 10rds practice and then 50rds after that for your qualification and you had to score a minimum score from 5, 10 and 15yds in order to get your shiny permit privilege card in the mail before you can actually go out and exercise your TN legislature mandated privilege-which they can take from you just as easily as they give it.

I would like to see TN come into the mainstream and ride the wave of Constitutional carry for a change.


The liberal antis wailed and moaned about how there would be drunken shootouts once we had carry where alcohol is served passed--so far no shootouts that I have heard about in the news as a result of Tennessee now having the ability to carry into places where alcohol is served for onsite consumption as long as you don't drink while carrying. They wailed and cried how state park carry would make every park in the state unsafe--again no surge in violence, no shootouts....and they will wail and moan like you would not believe when the issue of Constitutional carry is finally introduced into the legislature.

Sadly though I see as has been pointed out that some of the worst opposition will come from the concealed carry crowd and the trainers who will finally see their cash cow being sent out to pasture.

This fellow lives about 7-8 miles from me, and I am fairly certain I know the natural foods grocery store to which he is referring. I may have to start making the occasional shopping trip there; I'd love the opportunity to strike up a conversation (politely, of course) with him.

suntzu said:

Ok, so I have a question--who in AZ drafted the initial legislation--was it a coop of AZ OC'ers, the AZCDL--which we don't have anything along the lines of a AZcdl or VCDL here in Tennessee--I assume you mean the AZ citizens defense league?

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We (AzCDL) present "suggested" language to friendly legislators who are responsbile for drafting bills.

What we have here is the "Tennessee Firearms Association"--which is only interested in maintaining the status quo

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Just because the Tennessee Firearms Association (TFA) exists doesn't mean that there can be only one group representing gun owners.

If you have people who are willing to get invovled, you don't need the permission of the TFA. They probably have their hands full doing other things, and like you said, changing the CCW laws are not on their agenda. Start your own group. That's what we did in AZ.

I would like to see TN come into the mainstream and ride the wave of Constitutional carry for a change.

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If you want it bad enough then do something. Rather than post messages on online forums, start contacting your legislators. Find other like-minded individuals, set goals, formulate a plan, get invovled. You're either on the steamroller or you're part of the road.

Sadly though I see as has been pointed out that some of the worst opposition will come from the concealed carry crowd and the trainers who will finally see their cash cow being sent out to pasture.

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So, you have given up already?

I'm a California Expatriate Thankful to Now Be an AZ Citizen

GWbiker said:

Must we read any further?

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As awful as it sounds, I think we do. This complete lack of reason by Alan and his wife--both anti-carry yet willing to use the Second Amendment right enforced by the state of Arizona so they can commit assault on a man in the parking lot of a grocery store--is a reminder that our Federal- and State-granted rights are under constant attack.

First of all, I confess I came from California. I initially freaked out at the idea that anyone could be carrying a deadly weapon. Fortunately, my husband was raised with firearms. In summer of 2009, I picked up my first pistol and used it at a shooting range; now I own a pistol which I use, as a member, at that same shooting range.

For me, the move to Arizona opened my eyes. I always lived in terror of criminals in California, but it was so much a part of life that it became part of the background FUD that is being a California resident. As time passed, I started to feel safe in Arizona. The delusion that perhaps the police could arrive in time to catch the criminal and call an ambulance as I was bleeding out onto the street was gone. In its place was the comfort that citizens who had been trained to carry and who practiced with firearms were all around me. Once upon a time, I felt fear going into businesses which allowed people to open-carry or concealed-carry firearms; today, I refuse to shop anywhere that is anti-CCW because I want those people around me. To me, a business which is anti-CCW has given criminals a very clear message that they will be able to perpetrate their crimes unopposed. I consider the recent rape of a woman in the bathroom of a posted anti-CCW restaurant to prove my point, if only to myself. Criminals will go where they are unlikely to face immediate consequences; law-abiding people go where their rights are not infringed upon. Therefore, I patronize pro-CCW businesses. (An added benefit of increased personal savings--I don't shop at my two nearest malls any more because they have posted anti-carry--though not using the proper ARS posting).

I still have business in California, and I have come to hate crossing the border. I know that my life is in danger because where I have to go forces me to rely on already over-burdened law enforcement to arrive in time to save my life.

While I personally do not carry (I am not confident enough that I can keep a criminal from taking my weapon, and I am still meditating on my willingness to take any life if an innocent human life is at risk), I appreciate so much that others have made that very sober and serious decision to do so.

I came from California . . . and I woke up. Though the summers are brutal here in comparison to where I came from, I would rather have brutal summers and feel safe than live in paradise and know it's a matter of time before I am a victim of a criminal who will likely get away with my murder.

What a great first post from Just Jess!

JesseL said:

What a great first post from Just Jess!

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Here here! (or is it Hear Hear?) Welcome to the Forum!

If you are interested in weapons retention training there are some excellent instructors in the Phoenix area, or if you are feeling really crazy just head over to Nevada for a Front Sight course. I just purchased the 4-day handgun course for $89 bucks (supposedly a $2000 value) - maybe they are still offering that deal.

mFonz77 said:

I just purchased the 4-day handgun course for $89 bucks (supposedly a $2000 value) - maybe they are still offering that deal.

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The course price (click here) has risen to the Princely sum of $99 :lol:

I have a membership at Front Sight. I train there regularly. I've taken the 4-day class 3 times (keep getting roped into taking friends). It is NOT Rambo school or Boot Camp. The 4-day course (Geesh! For $99 you can't go wrong!) is a great indtroduction to the fundamentals of skill at arms. If you have never shot before, it's an great confidence builder - plus as a "newbie" you are the ideal student. If you think you are "experienced" you'll discover that you "don't know what you don't know."

Fred

Awesome post - thanks for sharing!

Just Jess said:

While I personally do not carry (I am not confident enough that I can keep a criminal from taking my weapon, and I am still meditating on my willingness to take any life if an innocent human life is at risk), I appreciate so much that others have made that very sober and serious decision to do so.

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Someone else mentioned the $99 Front Sight class. I strongly recommend it to help make that decision that you are struggling with. It'll take all the mysteries away about the gun itself and you'll gain confidence.

There is a classroom lecture series woven into the course that discusses the moral, ethical and legal issues regarding using a gun to defend yourself. Another lecture covers what to expect after you "win" the gun fight - your emotional roller coaster, the physiological effects, the societal effects and the financial effects.

Fred

azcdlfred said:

We (AzCDL) present "suggested" language to friendly legislators who are responsbile for drafting bills.

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Makes perfect sense.

azcdlfred said:

Just because the Tennessee Firearms Association (TFA) exists doesn't mean that there can be only one group representing gun owners.

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This is absolutely true as well.

azcdlfred said:

If you want it bad enough then do something. Rather than post messages on online forums, start contacting your legislators. Find other like-minded individuals, set goals, formulate a plan, get invovled. You're either on the steamroller or you're part of the road.

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I have and am doing exactly this--I have written several legislators--at least one I know is 100% for Constitutional carry and after I approached him he told me that he has such legislation drafted now, he is just waiting on the right legislature to be installed that will do something other than just kill his bill in committee.

azcdlfred said:

So, you have given up already?

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No, far from it--I have been working on a petition to pass around, so that I can send it in, I am talking to like minded people--the issue is to get people off their seats and into action. I have seen a lot of resistance from people in this state, so changing their minds is going to take time but I think it will happen. I have spoken with numerous legislators--although only one has given any indication of being pro Constitutional carry at this point. But I will keep plugging away and do what I can to try and convince people to get involved.

Welcome to Arizona Just Jesse. The following opinion is not a flame toward you.

I refuse to debate with a California native on the subject of gun control or Arizona gun laws. Why waste your time.

1). Consider California gun laws which differ in Incorporated cities/towns and in UNincorporated locals.

2). the California Assault Weapon flow chart which only a committee of drunkards could have drawn up.

3). The California approved handgun list. (state sanctioned extortion of gun manufacturers)

4). Gun registration in California, plus all gun transfers must go thru an FFL.

5). Several Bay area counties that refuse to issue CCW permits.

6). unloaded open carry law which subjects the carrier to an "E CHECK" by LEO.

7). The Calgun site which discourages UOC, calling it unproductive.

8). The 10 day waiting period. In the event of a city riot, just wait 10 days before you buy and take home a weapon to protect your family.

9). and probably should be atop the list - California Constitution has no second amendment provision. One of 6 states.

Sorry, IMHO when it comes to second amendment issues and the right of self defense, discussing gun rights with a California subject is a total waste of time.

suntzu said:

I have written several legislators--at least one I know is 100% for Constitutional carry and after I approached him he told me that he has such legislation drafted now, he is just waiting on the right legislature to be installed that will do something other than just kill his bill in committee.

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Awesome! Do you, or anyone you know who has the same passion, live near the Capitol? Someone who can tesitfy at hearings? If it's not a long drive, I recommend visiting the legislator. If you can, bring a few friends. Ask him what you can do to help him? Here in AZ, we talk up the bills with other legislators to get co-sponsors. It has a greater impact when the bill gets to a committee.

Are there email forums where you can recruit help and talk up the bill? Maybe even set up a single issue website for people to go to? Use one for those social networking sites like FaceBook, etc.

Start an "alerts" list. When bills move, we use "cut and paste" letters. Forget all the crap you heard about indivdually crafted letters meaning more. First, most people won't take the time to put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard), but if you do all the work for them the chances of something getting sent are pretty high. And, when a committee receives hundreds or thousands of identical emails, they get the message.

I have been working on a petition to pass around, so that I can send it in

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Generally, peititons are meaningless to legislators. What gets their attention is floods of individual emails.

I am talking to like minded people--the issue is to get people off their seats and into action. I have seen a lot of resistance from people in this state, so changing their minds is going to take time but I think it will happen. I have spoken with numerous legislators--although only one has given any indication of being pro Constitutional carry at this point. But I will keep plugging away and do what I can to try and convince people to get involved.

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Sounds like you're doing a great job already! Just a thought, have a back-up bill handy. We started attacking permitless carry by getting bills introduced lowering the penalty for carrying without a permit for a couple of sessions. They got vetoed but a paradigm shift was done at the Capitol and in the minds of citizens. When we were able to get "the" Constituitonal Carry bill intoduced it wasn't that big of a leap.

Use the tactics that have been used against gun owners. Read Saul Alinsky.

Fred

Ha! This guy likes to sling insults behind the safety of his computer, typical...

Ok, based on his logic, he feels a police officer is commiting a terrorist act because they also have thier sidearms displayed openly. I say this only beacause he got so bent out of shape because a citizen was simply shopping and happened to be OCing, making no overt motions toward his gun, just going on about his daily life, just like a LEO going into a resturant for lunch or walking down the street.

OCing is a right that we are forunate to have. It is a simple fact that if a BG who is about to commit a crime and notices their intended victim is carrying or someone is carrying in the immediate vicinity, they will move on.

Jessel, since you are on this site then you can access the laws, you should read them, you might learn something.

Carry on and be proud

matt35 said:

Jessel, since you are on this site then you can access the laws, you should read them, you might learn something.

Carry on and be proud

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???

Have you mistaken me for someone else? I've been here for ages (first registered on OCDO in 2004) and am a big proponent of open carry. Got my AZCDL t-shirt and everything too.

JesseL said:

Have you mistaken me for someone else? I've been here for ages (first registered on OCDO in 2004) and am a big proponent of open carry. Got my AZCDL t-shirt and everything too.

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I notice from your pictures, that you carry your pistol on the correct side of your body :dude:

Fred

azcdlfred said:

I notice from your pictures, that you carry your pistol on the correct side of your body :dude:

Fred

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Makes it easy to explain to the wife why I need custom leather. You just can't get really good lefty holsters off the shelf

JesseL said:

Makes it easy to explain to the wife why I need custom leather. You just can't get really good lefty holsters off the shelf

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Smart.....

Personally I prefer the smell of burning kydex when I "present" my pistol. I'm a long time Blade-tech fan. I figure it's only fitting that since I prefer tactical tupperware (Glock), I should use plastic holsters

As a side note (agian from the pictures), after I started training seriously, I now have a box of left-handed FBI canted holsters (like yours) gathering dust. I'm strictly "straight-drop." It DOES make a difference.

Fred

Jessel,
I mistook you as the one that made the original post/rant, sorry bro.

Please Do Recognize...

that most "Law Enforcement" in this country AGREE with these people. In spite of their oath of office to "...preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution...", "Law Enforcement" routinely bow and scrape before their Masters and then do whatever they're told. Constitution be damned! You doubt it? Then look at:
http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/
and go see what they think about THAT at:
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?154483-quot-Ammo-quot-for-the-LE-hating-public
-and-
http://forums.officer.com/forums/sh...SD-Rookie-Shoots-at-Store-Clerk-After-Robbery
-and-http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?154531-Student-Discovers-Tracking-Device-Under-His-Car

Understand yet? Be sure to thank "Law Enforcement" appropriately for the OUTSTANDING job they have done!