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Thread: FBI after bugging a students car: "Don't worry. You're boring."

  1. #1
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    FBI after bugging a students car: "Don't worry. You're boring."

    If being boring still gets your car bugged, makes me worry just what happens if I look "interesting".

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/gaming....ss_igoogle_cnn

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    /me wonders what they'd do with some of the cars that have no place to put that, with a totally shielded undercarriage (Lotus Elise, for instance, or a Tesla)...

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    If I ever found something like that on my car, I'd like to think I'd be a little more creative.

  4. #4
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    do like the guy id in the movie Thief, anchor that box to a greyhound and let it roll. up yours invasive government bastards, how can you possibly justify bugging a kid's car with our tax money.

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    Query:

    IF one were to find a device such as described in the foregoing posted news article link on their vehicle that had been placed WITHOUT a warrant, could not one make the argument that the device had been abandoned by a person or persons unknown and one could dispose of same however they saw fit?

    I guess the hard part would be finding the warrant!

    Or to those that placed the device.... "It is in the possession of my attorney and is evidence in a forthcoming civil rights violation suit... Are you sure it is YOURS?"
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 10-11-2010 at 03:56 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    That's really scary.
    I lauged at the agent saying "you don't need to call your lawyer". That's exactly when you DO need to call!
    Actually, I think I would have taken it to a lawyer up front, or maybe given it to a pastor for safekeeping 'til I could get a lawyer, or do something so it wasn't in my posession.
    Better yet, make an appointment with the ACLU & some reporters, so it's all very very public.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Query:

    IF one were to find a device such as described in the foregoing posted news article link on their vehicle that had been placed WITHOUT a warrant, could not one make the argument that the device had been abandoned by a person or persons unknown and one could dispose of same however they saw fit?

    I guess the hard part would be finding the warrant!

    Or to those that placed the device.... "It is in the possession of my attorney and is evidence in a forthcoming civil rights violation suit... Are you sure it is YOURS?"
    Under most states property laws you can claim is as your personal property and do with it as you please.

    Mine would be to attach it to a long haul bus or truck.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Imposable but more fun, a commercial aircraft.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Heh. If I found one my first thought would be to attach it to a taxi, FedEx, UPS or even a police car, if I could, but then rationality would prevail and I'd probably give it to a lawyer...
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

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    Bet you could make a fortune selling little low-powered transmitters to goof up the incoming GPS signal.

    "Hey! He's in that collapsed mine in Chile!"

    "No. Wait. He's at forty fathoms in the North Atlantic."

    "Wait. No. He's...what the heck is wrong with this thing?"


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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I love the way this transpired:

    1. FBI plants a GPS tracking device on an Arab-American student's car.

    2. Student finds device; friend posts pics of it online.

    3. Less than 48 hrs later, FBI visits student and confirms that the device was real by demanding he return the device.

    4. The FBI discounts the whole affair, claiming the student was "boring."

    Boring. After three to six months surveillance?

    Return the device? What - did the FBI misplace it?

    Ok, just kidding. But all kidding aside, the following disturbs me greatly:

    "His discovery comes in the wake of a recent ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals saying it's legal for law enforcement to secretly place a tracking device on a suspect's car without getting a warrant, even if the car is parked in a private driveway"

    Some investigators are of the mindset that they're hampered by our laws from conducting a "proper" investigation. Fortunately, those laws are the ones like the 4th Amendment which protects us from unreasonable search and seizure.

    I would submit despite the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that monitoring any citizens' whereabouts without a warrant constitutes unreasonable search of evidence with respect to the citizens' whereabouts.

    I mean seriously, folks!!!

    1. Wanna know what and who we've been e-mailing? You need a warrant.

    2. Want to know whether some guy has boxers in their dresser or Hoover's bloomers? You need a warrant.

    3. Want to know where a person is going when conducting (and minding) their own business? Oh! No need for a warrant for that! Go ahead and attach a device used to both track the person to within 30 feet, and make a record of it as "evidence" for later submission in a court of law.

    To whom else does this appear to be a total end-run around our 4the Amendment rights agains unreasonable search and seizure?

    According to the article, "Afifi" is "a 20-year-old U.S.-born citizen" and he "cooperated willingly."

    I could say I have a love-hate relationship with the ACLU, but that's not true. At times some of the stuff they do appears to me to be ridiculous. At other times, they throw their considerable legal resources against the erosion of our Civil Liberties... Hey! Hence their name.

    Crap - the kid doesn't even drive a foreign make of vehicle. He drives a Ford!

    "Afifi saw a wire sticking out near the right rear wheel and exhaust."

    How much you want to bet this point will find its way into the FBI field manual within the week?

    Still, two very glaring facts from the article remain:

    1. The former agent, who asked not to be named, said the device was an older model of tracking equipment that had long ago been replaced by devices that don't require batteries.

    2. "He said he was certain that agents who installed it would have obtained a 30-day warrant for its use."

    Hence, it wasn't FBI. The question is: For whom are they covering?

    And oh, by the way, very nice work on the part of Jennifer Kanaan, speaking Arabic to gain his trust, veiled threats by indicating they knew which restaurants he and his girlfriend (double-whammy there) frequented, and another trust point by congratulating him on a new job.

    It's what's called a "sh** sandwich." Only they added more crap on top with their additional comments, before trying to deflate any alarm by telling him "not to worry."

    For all I know, this natural-born American may yet be guilty as all get-out. Then again, he may be clean as a whistle.

    Personally, my main issue involves the 4th Amendment. Decades ago some argued that "search and seizure" applied only to physical items, but not information. That was ruled on by the U.S. Surpreme Court, who declared that information, because it was as decisive in a case as physical evidence, also fell under the unreasonable search and seizure rules.

    I wish I had a link for that case, but I'm not a Supreme Court decisions guru. I seem to recall it was in the earlier part of the 20th century, and may have been related to federal wire-tapping laws.

    Regardless, I feel fairly certain that if this is elevated to the Supreme Court level, it will be decided the same way they have with respect to any and all other electronic methods of evesdropping, namely, you need a warrant.

    Thanks, FBI, for bringing this to our attention.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
    Heh. If I found one my first thought would be to attach it to a taxi, FedEx, UPS or even a police car, if I could, but then rationality would prevail and I'd probably give it to a lawyer...
    Heres a better one.....Take a few pics of it on your car, then place it and the pics in a box with about a half dozen of those round plastic toothbrush travel cases, and throw some cut wiring in there, with a note saying " Hope y'all enjoyed your panic over your own "device" that was illegally planted on my car.....and remember, Have A Nicy Day.
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

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    1. have cameras, voice recorders and a lawyer ready.

    2. have lawyer dig around and see if any warrants were issued against you. If yer clean then have the lawyer ready to file a civil suite.

    3. remove devise and try and sell it on ebay. be sure to disable the devise so it is not broadcasting its location. or perhaps leave it alone and have yer lawyer hold onto it.

    4. when the criminals arrive notify lawyer and obtain their identification. If they refuse to give any, have identified that the devise is theirs and was put in place by them, consider a citizens arrest very seriously as they are going way outside the law now. If an arrest is prudent a stun gun or other nonlethal method of disablement would be useful.

    5. proceed with civil/criminal litigation.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Guess they couldn't find secrets to sell to the russians or women and children to murder. Or laptops and handguns to steal; or tests to cheat on. The fbi, hoover to hanssen, Ruby Ridge to Waco to present day: real 'heroes.'

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    I'd duct tape that thing to a desert tortise.

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    UPS Ground to Argentina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3/325 View Post
    UPS Ground to Argentina.
    Nope, REGULAR INTERNATIONAL PARCEL POST to Mozambique!

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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    A 3-pound hammer can fix anything.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    ...consider a citizens arrest very seriously as they are going way outside the law now.
    Is it even legal to do a citizens arrest of a law enforcement officer?

    If an arrest is prudent a stun gun or other nonlethal method of disablement would be useful.
    I'm fairly certain tasering an FBI field agent would help you about as much in court as a clown suit.

    proceed with civil/criminal litigation.
    You mean the one that would pending against anyone who took this advice, right?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    IF one were to find a device such as described in the foregoing posted news article link on their vehicle that had been placed WITHOUT a warrant, could not one make the argument that the device had been abandoned by a person or persons unknown and one could dispose of same however they saw fit?"
    "Oh, that was your gizmo, Agent Tracker? I'm sorry. I bought the car used, and figured it belonged to the previous owner, so I tossed it. Probably 20 ft down at the landfill by now."


  21. #21
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    I'd have a strong urge to tape it to my waist and run around my street yelling "Allah-Akbar" but hey, that's just me :P

  22. #22
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Nope, REGULAR INTERNATIONAL PARCEL POST to Mozambique!
    Or Dubai.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    I think I'd try this...

    There was a lady in this area (Henrico County, VA) a few months or so ago, that discovered some wiring hanging out from under her car after she parked in the lot at work. I'm not sure if she actually discoverd it on her own or if someone told her about it, and she got all upset, called the local fuzz (Henrico P.D.) and I think they came out, taped off the area, evacuated her building, and blew it up for her. I think that's the way it went.

    After the smoke cleared, it was discovered that it wasn't a bomb, but rather a GPS tracking device that her husband (I think there was some domestic problems going on) had placed on her vehicle.

    So I think maybe I'd go that route if I found myself in a similar circumstance, make a phone call, and let the law enforcement community practice a little "friendly fire"..., kinda sexy, no?

    sidestreet

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    I'm liking the city bus idea, best. I wonder if they'd be able to figure out the reason behind the repetitive route?

    Better yet, with a taxi, and let 'em go crazy trying to figure out the sense behind a somewhat random route that's nevertheless filled with visits to the airport and bus stations!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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