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Thread: Another case of ME report not supporting initial statements

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Another case of ME report not supporting initial statements

    http://heraldnet.com/article/20101009/NEWS03/710099924


    SPOKANE — The autopsy report of slain pastor Wayne Scott Creach continues to raise questions about the shooting by a Spokane County sheriff’s deputy.

    The report has gone to Prosecutor Steve Tucker, who will decide if charges are brought against deputy Brian Hirzel in the Aug. 25 shooting at the Baptist pastor’s plant nursery business.

    Hirzel had parked his car at the business for a prowl check, and has said Creach approached the car while armed with a gun. Hirzel told investigators he struck Creach, 74, in the knee with his baton, saw Creach reach for the gun, and shot him in the chest.

    But the autopsy found no injury consistent with a baton strike
    .
    At first glance it would appear that the Deputy embellished his account of what occurred. Just like the Seattle incident with John Williams, the Prosecutor will have an opportunity to decide what really happened and hopefully it will be soon. Delays just tend to strengthen the belief that the "wall of silence" is still in effect.
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    Keep in mind that the heart has to be pumping in order to pump blood and lymph into crushed tissue in order to make a bruise.

    If he was shot 2 seconds after the baton strike, I can't imagine there would be bruising.

    I don't know the state of the science, though. I wonder if medical examiners can detect damaged tissue microscopically.

    Also, do we know if the baton strike was solid, light, or glancing?

    I'm not saying there weren't problems with this shooting. I'm saying this might not really be evidence of a problem.

  3. #3
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Keep in mind that the heart has to be pumping in order to pump blood and lymph into crushed tissue in order to make a bruise.

    If he was shot 2 seconds after the baton strike, I can't imagine there would be bruising.

    I don't know the state of the science, though. I wonder if medical examiners can detect damaged tissue microscopically.

    Also, do we know if the baton strike was solid, light, or glancing?

    I'm not saying there weren't problems with this shooting. I'm saying this might not really be evidence of a problem.
    Before commenting you may wish to do some research. Try this for starts:

    http://www.legalserviceindia.com/medicolegal/bruise.htm

    Bruising is caused by ruptured capillaries and can take some time to form but they do form. It is even possible for bruises to be formed AFTER death.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Batons can break 2x4s. Hitting someone in the knee with one is a good way to cripple them for life, and that damage is far more than just a bruise. There will be ruptured bursas, torn ligaments, stretched or macerated tissue and tendons, and/or broken bones - any of which should have shown up clearly in the autopsy. If the ME says there was no evidence the guy was hit before being shot, then the officer was lying out his ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Before commenting you may wish to do some research. Try this for starts:

    http://www.legalserviceindia.com/medicolegal/bruise.htm

    Bruising is caused by ruptured capillaries and can take some time to form but they do form. It is even possible for bruises to be formed AFTER death.
    Cool, thank you. (even with the unnecessary criticism)

    It wouldn't open for me, rather it was very, very slow. I'll try again later and see if the connection is faster.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (even with the unnecessary criticism)
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Lol! Now that was funny.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-09-2010 at 07:15 PM.

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    Creach was taking a 325 mg aspirin daily so bruising would have happened very easily. Also there is no forensic evidence that Creaches pants were struck with a baton and there is no forensic evidence that the baton touched Creach's pants.

    I have followed this very closely and several things do not add up. I am hoping that Tucker (the DA) will decide to charge the Deputy for both his sake and the publics sake. A trial would either confirm what a lot of people think or exhonerate the Deputy. Just my .02 worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antispam540 View Post
    Batons can break 2x4s. Hitting someone in the knee with one is a good way to cripple them for life, and that damage is far more than just a bruise.
    I watched a couple SPs whack an LT in BOTH knees cause he was in an off-limits area carousing as were the rest of us sailors. The big difference was he was an officer in uniform while we were just enlisted. He crumpled like a sheet of paper. They packed him off under the armpits while we enlisted scattered like rats from a sinking ship. I always felt bad for the LT as he was hurt bad, and I expect lost his commission for doing what we all were doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    It is even possible for bruises to be formed AFTER death.
    Very common for this to happen, in fact. A real baton-strike is very easy to see on a body, especially at the time of the post mortem examination after livor mortis has set in. There are certain patterns that appear in the skin after death and disruptions to these patterns are very obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    I watched a couple SPs whack an LT in BOTH knees cause he was in an off-limits area carousing as were the rest of us sailors. The big difference was he was an officer in uniform while we were just enlisted. He crumpled like a sheet of paper. They packed him off under the armpits while we enlisted scattered like rats from a sinking ship. I always felt bad for the LT as he was hurt bad, and I expect lost his commission for doing what we all were doing.
    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely...
    Who said that?
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    The room is loosing focus of the implied evidence that the LEO was trying to sweeten the lies in his favor to avoid paying for the monumental screw-up he created. Bad cops do exist. Very few, but some. You can also have good cops that get all excited and totally waste some poor elderly man and go into damage control by lying about the true actions of the slain victim.

    This is what I guess happened here... sad

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    That's the thing - if he admitted that he screwed up big time and explained how things went wrong, I'd understand. He'd still need to pay for his mistake in the justice system, but if the guy's honest about it I'd want him to get a lenient sentence (not *that* lenient, but the lenient side of normal - you know what I mean).

    Lying to save your butt, especially when you're in a position of power that's easily abused, will make me very unhappy. I will advocate for the maximum penalty under the law if you're caught.

    I hope it was just panic in the heat of the moment, and this guy can still claim some shreds of self respect.

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    all I have to say here is what I told ALL my kids as they were growing up....

    IT DON"T MATTER WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, LYING ABOUT IT WILL MAKE IT WORSE!

    and for this I will add...

    NO MATTER HOW INNOCENT YOU THINK YOU ARE, LYING ABOUT IT WILL ONLY MAKE IT WORSE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by G20-IWB24/7 View Post
    Very common for this to happen, in fact. A real baton-strike is very easy to see on a body, especially at the time of the post mortem examination after livor mortis has set in. There are certain patterns that appear in the skin after death and disruptions to these patterns are very obvious.
    I see dead people....
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I see dead people....
    Me too:

    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    all I have to say here is what I told ALL my kids as they were growing up....

    IT DON"T MATTER WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, LYING ABOUT IT WILL MAKE IT WORSE!

    and for this I will add...

    NO MATTER HOW INNOCENT YOU THINK YOU ARE, LYING ABOUT IT WILL ONLY MAKE IT WORSE!
    100% agree and to add, anything else you said or future statements come into question.

    Does not look good as to his recounting striking him and we will see how much weight this plays on this case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G20-IWB24/7 View Post
    Very common for this to happen, in fact. A real baton-strike is very easy to see on a body, especially at the time of the post mortem examination after livor mortis has set in. There are certain patterns that appear in the skin after death and disruptions to these patterns are very obvious.
    BTW, it's rigor mortis. Sorry to be so picky, but that is the correct term. And I am sorry, but I can't get the bold to quit. LOL I only wanted to emphasis one word, not the whole post! Forgive me.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Livor Mortis

    livor mortis
    [lī′vər]
    a purple discoloration of the skin in some dependent body areas following death as a result of blood cell destruction.



    G20 works with dead people....
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    ROFLMAO! You come up with some great ones! +1

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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antispam540 View Post
    Batons can break 2x4s. Hitting someone in the knee with one is a good way to cripple them for life, and that damage is far more than just a bruise. There will be ruptured bursas, torn ligaments, stretched or macerated tissue and tendons, and/or broken bones - any of which should have shown up clearly in the autopsy. If the ME says there was no evidence the guy was hit before being shot, then the officer was lying out his ass.
    Batons *can* break 2x4's but I have also seen batons broken or bent on human bone.

    The human body is at once weak and strong, depending on angles and force.
    Squeak!

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Batons *can* break 2x4's but I have also seen batons broken or bent on human bone.

    The human body is at once weak and strong, depending on angles and force.
    Indeed, but then the officer's baton would be bent and/or broken, and there would certainly be tissue damage around the bone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post


    G20 works with dead people....
    HAHA! Actually, my co-workers are very much alive, but the names on the top of my case files are people who have recently deceased. Livor mortis (aka, post-mortem lividity) and rigor mortis are two different things.

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    Gads, all this talk of dead people. Haven't thought of the morgue in a long time. Being a diener is a physically demanding job...but fun.

    Funny story about one time being alone in the morgue wilth the deceased (I was the new guy) and not knowing there was an intercom down there...I stuck a scalpel into the ceiling...

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    Gads, all this talk of dead people. Haven't thought of the morgue in a long time. Being a diener is a physically demanding job...but fun.

    Funny story about one time being alone in the morgue wilth the deceased (I was the new guy) and not knowing there was an intercom down there...I stuck a scalpel into the ceiling...
    Not to mention the occasional "body noise" that "passes" and startles you the first time you hear it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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