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Virginia law allows folks to ignore red light camera tickets!

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Most people should know this already, but just in case, the rule is this: unless you are served personally (i.e., deputy hands you the summons), there is no penalty for ignoring red light camera tickets mailed to you or tacked to your door.

See blogs at http://blog.motorists.org/toss-your-virginia-red-light-camera-ticket & http://757hamptonroads.com/2010/08/23/chesapeakes-new-red-light-camera/comment-page-1/#comment-3026

Let's get the word out - if localities know they will not make money on ticket scammeras, they will not enage in these accident producing schemes.

See 2005 VDOT red light camera report at http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/05-vdot.pdf:

As the 2005 RLC VDOT report states in Appendix H: Virginia’s red light camera law “ultimately requires a personal notification, which may prove prohibitively expensive for some jurisdictions.”

In more detail, the 2005 RLC VDOT report on page 110 explains this as follows:

“The new statute referenced in section A., § 8.01-296, is the provision for service of
process in civil actions, which has been borrowed by the Virginia General Assembly for the
present purpose. It outlines several options for achieving satisfactory service, beginning with an
attempt at personal in-hand service, and moving on to a series of de-escalating forms of
substituted service: delivering to an adult at the defendant’s usual place of abode; posting on the
front door of such abode in conjunction with mailing; and finally, by order of publication in
appropriate cases under the provisions of the applicable code sections. It is the second of these
that gives Virginia its nickname as a “nail and mail” state, meaning that for most civil actions,
posting notice on the defendant’s front door in conjunction with mailing will constitute sufficient
notice. However, this is not so for red light camera citations under the code, for the second
statute referenced above is § 19.2-76 which, as we have already seen, requires personal in-hand
service if the “nail and mail” approach does not succeed in bringing the defendant into court.
Thus, under Virginia’s red light camera statute as it is now worded, the mere mailing of a
citation without personal service by a law enforcement officer does not constitute sufficient
notice under the statute’s own terms. While the statute permits the jurisdiction to make the
initial attempt to summon the accused to court via mail, if that person fails to respond, he or she
is not considered to have been satisfactorily served with notice. Default judgments entered under
such circumstances (when the defendant fails to appear in court on the appointed return date)
would thus not be binding, and the defendant could not be charged with contempt for failing to
comply with such a judgment. Hence, despite its ostensive distancing from the requirements of
Va. Code Ann. § 19.2-76, Virginia’s red light camera statute comes full circle and, in the end,
requires personal service before a default judgment may be entered against no-shows.”
 
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Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
It's a shame they don't have such a law in MD...

I'd LOVE to ignore the Private Contractor from Texas who drove all the way to NC to attempt to serve me a citation for one of those illegal MD speed/red light cameras...
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
It's a shame they don't have such a law in MD...

I'd LOVE to ignore the Private Contractor from Texas who drove all the way to NC to attempt to serve me a citation for one of those illegal MD speed/red light cameras...

You can always have them arrested for trespassing. After you tell them to leave, if they don't start moving immediately they are trespassing.

:cool:
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Sounds like VA is somewhat schitzophrenic, in that one side is attempting to collect, and the other side is attempting to block.

It's been attempted around the world for more than 20 years and it DOESN'T WORK for a very large number of reasons, not the least of which is the rather serious corruption inroads which invariably accompany the law.

I've written about this before, but apparently, folks (aka state legislators) remain either unrealistically idealistic, or they're monetarially tethered to the companies who stand to profit hugely by these measures even if the traffic results are squarely not in the best interests of society.
 
C

coolfrmn

Guest
My problem with them:

1. There is no judgement call made. i.e. - if your tailgated etc.

2. The corruption. Cameras owned by companies that have a monatary stake in the fines. They change the yellow lite timing to catch more offenders. It was in the national news. Here is one link I found.

3. Cause more rear end collisions because people don't want to risk a ticket.

http://thedailycougar.com/2010/10/28/red-light-cameras-reek-of-corruption/

http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23710970/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
My daughter got one of these tickets. (Actually, it was mailed to my wife; it was her truck. We insisted that my daughter pay the fine.) The ticket contained two pictures. One showed all four wheels behind the stop line and the light being red. The second showed all four wheels in front of the stop line and the light being red. Both photos clearly showed the tag number. I drive through that intersection all the time and have almost been hit by red light runners numerous times. The yellows are plenty long enough to stop.

I, for one, applaud red light cameras. The intersections in town that don't have them have three or four cars going through on a clean red after a sufficiently long yellow. The ones that have the cameras are having a reduced incidence of long trains of cars following each other through the red light, knowing that the traffic in the other direction physically can't go until the caboose goes through.

Folks are learning.

On the rear-ending. That will happen when a car, usually speeding, will suddenly decide they can't beat the light (or suddenly notice the intersection has a camera), and they are being followed too closely by someone else who should be stopping for the light. Anyway, that impact will typically be far less than the impact of a t-bone by a red-light runner. I know; I have been the victim of both a rear-ending (I had been stopped for a few seconds when a logging truck with faulty brakes plowed into me) and a t-bone by someone who failed to stop and hit me full-tilt.

Bully for red light cameras.
 
C

coolfrmn

Guest
My daughter got one of these tickets. (Actually, it was mailed to my wife; it was her truck. We insisted that my daughter pay the fine.) The ticket contained two pictures. One showed all four wheels behind the stop line and the light being red. The second showed all four wheels in front of the stop line and the light being red. Both photos clearly showed the tag number. I drive through that intersection all the time and have almost been hit by red light runners numerous times. The yellows are plenty long enough to stop.

I, for one, applaud red light cameras. The intersections in town that don't have them have three or four cars going through on a clean red after a sufficiently long yellow. The ones that have the cameras are having a reduced incidence of long trains of cars following each other through the red light, knowing that the traffic in the other direction physically can't go until the caboose goes through.

Folks are learning.

On the rear-ending. That will happen when a car, usually speeding, will suddenly decide they can't beat the light (or suddenly notice the intersection has a camera), and they are being followed too closely by someone else who should be stopping for the light. Anyway, that impact will typically be far less than the impact of a t-bone by a red-light runner. I know; I have been the victim of both a rear-ending (I had been stopped for a few seconds when a logging truck with faulty brakes plowed into me) and a t-bone by someone who failed to stop and hit me full-tilt.

Bully for red light cameras.

If opperated honestly & properly, then yes. But we all know the allmighty dollar drives companies though.

Just to play devil's advocate... What happen to being able to face your accuser?

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Love ya eye95..
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
If opperated honestly & properly, then yes. But we all know the allmighty dollar drives companies though.

Just to play devil's advocate... What happen to being able to face your accuser?

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Love ya eye95..

One may request a hearing and present evidence that justifies or excuses running the red light. There are several justifications and excuses built into the law. It is a hassle to have the hearing, but the photos present a pretty damning prime facie case that the law was broken.

The cameras are having the desired effect, and I see zero evidence that the program is being run unjustly. My daughter has likely adjusted her driving habits a tad. I wish they'd put more cameras up at other intersections.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
The yellows are plenty long enough to stop.

I'm glad you've experienced justice, as opposed to the perversion thereof (shortening of yellow times) red light cameras seem to encourage in order to achieve a greater payout.

I, for one, applaud red light cameras.

Personally, I think would look rather silly, standing on the streetcorner, clapping your hands...

The intersections in town that don't have them have three or four cars going through on a clean red after a sufficiently long yellow. The ones that have the cameras are having a reduced incidence of long trains of cars following each other through the red light, knowing that the traffic in the other direction physically can't go until the caboose goes through.

Provided hard and fast laws are in place concerning what determines the setting of yellow light times, I would not be opposed. However, I would expect, nee', demand, those considerations include speed limits in the area, adjustments for rain, sleet, snow, and grade (angle of inclination/declination) of pavement.

Folks are learning.

Not about what matters! Any of the just-mentioned conditions can double stopping distance. Are they included in the equations they use to "calculate" yellow light times? I think not!

Hooray for the Va Assembly's pulling the rug out from under the sting of this ridiculous measure.

On the rear-ending. That will happen when a car, usually speeding, will suddenly decide they can't beat the light...

Actually, it happens when one care slams into the back of another.

I have been the victim of both a rear-ending (I had been stopped for a few seconds when a logging truck with faulty brakes plowed into me) and a t-bone by someone who failed to stop and hit me full-tilt.

Same. Seven times.

Bully for red light cameras.

I have another term, also beginning with the same four letters. However I believe my term more aptly describes the mindless support regurgitated towards this as of yet immature and very easily manipulated i.e. corrupted technology all to readily espoused most by those who stand to monetarily gain the most.

Are you a cop, eye95? For the last several weeks, you've certainly been sounding like one, and I am not in the least referring to our disagreement over May 1. Rather, I'm referring to your stance on a number of issues like this, as well as the nature of your response to our disagreements. I hate profiling, and won't, other than to say...

...I am a C.O.P. - completely objective person.

Well, that's a goal, anyway, and probably one I won't achieve in my lifetime. I'll never stop trying, however, primarily by keeping my eyes and ears open and always listening to dissention opinions (including yours), but more importantly the reasoning behind them.

But it'll be the arguements themselves which change my mind, not who's giving them, nor how often they're uttered, and certainly not with how often or vociferously they're uttered. In fact, that'll always signify not their validity, but rather, the fact they can't stand on their own.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
A republican who likes Gov. Authority imagine that. Red light cameras are an intrusion, and there are evidence they don't really help. They give tickets out even when a cop wouldn't. Having a pro active police force is an intrusion on our constitutional liberty and now they want machines and computers and corporations to do policing?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA

How's that you're-the-only-person-on-my-ignore-list thing workin' for ya? :lol: Not well, it seems.

Show me an unaltered video of a badly timed traffic light with a red-light camera, and I will agree that that camera is unjustly taking money. Until then, I see a bunch of bluster by folks who don't like a very effective law enforcement system.

If you don't want to pay red-light tickets, drive at the posted speed limit and don't try to beat lights. We've got those lights all over Montgomery, and I have zero problem not getting tickets from the cameras.

And, like I said, behaviors are being altered. Good.

Oh, and, moving on. Feel free not to ignore me :lol: and reply to this message. I won't respond to you.
 

Uber_Olafsun

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
583
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
I don't agree with them on the fact that they give the ticket to the owner not the driver. A cop pulls you over they see who is driving and they get the ticket. I got one of these in dc but because the car is in my wires name it came in her name. Then it puts the burden on the citizen to tell who was driving if it was not them. I am sorry innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around!
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Are you a cop, eye95? For the last several weeks, you've certainly been sounding like one, and I am not in the least referring to our disagreement over May 1. Rather, I'm referring to your stance on a number of issues like this, as well as the nature of your response to our disagreements.

He's something, alright. I've been bothered by this poster since day 1. And when I say bothered, I don't mean in the ordinary way that I am bothered by any person with whom I disagree.

No, there is something insidious about the positions he takes and his modes of argument. A cop he very well may be.



Oh, and for those who may be on the fence: I've never been busted by a traffic camera, and I don't run red lights. I don't even push them unless it is unsafe to stop (well, sometimes in San Francisco, I may push them, just a little. :p). I don't even speed anymore except on backroads (never breaking the law, of course :rolleyes:).

But I've also paid attention to traffic engineers (unlike our police and government) who have long shown that speed limits increase accidents and road fatalities (except in the most abused of residential neighborhoods), and that red light and speeding cameras only enhance these problems.

With too many regulations, people pay too much attention to avoiding tickets, and not enough to basic road safety.

Case in point: consider (as any traffic engineer will tell you) the highway. Without speed limits, lane courtesy reigns, as people know they may get a ticket for driving slow in the left lane, and will hold up other, legitimate traffic. Since people automatically self-regulate their speed to their comfort level (exception: 16-year-old males, but they don't follow speed limits either), traffic becomes quite safe.

Compare to the highway with arbitrary and capricious revenue-generating speed limits: Lane courtesy is forgotten, with folks driving at (or below) the speed limit in the left lane, thinking "hey he'd have to break the law to pass me, so I don't need to let him pass". I myself have done this, much to my perpetual shame. People become wannabe speed enforcers for others, and traffic hostility reaches a high.

As a traffic engineer could tell you, lane changes are the most commonly accident-producing maneuvers, and this new environment has encouraged lane changes in anger, and against drivers who wish to compete in order to maintain their "speed limit police" lead position in the left lane. The get-to-the-right-accelerate-fiercly-cut-off-to-the-left maneuver becomes commonplace (as opposed to the get-over-to-the-left-maintain-constant-speed-get-over-to-the-right-some-time-later-if-a-faster-driver-approaches-you-from-behind).

The result? Traffic accidents (and concomitantly fatalities) go up, along with police-hustled revenue. Who benefits? Certainly not the people, or safe drivers.
 
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Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Traffic accidents (and concomitantly fatalities) go up, along with police-hustled revenue. Who benefits? Certainly not the people, or safe drivers.

Dammit, now I gotta go find my dikshunary.

College kids. Sheesh.

:p:)


ETA: "accompaniment; an event or situation that occurs at the same time or in connection with another." wordnetweb.princeton.edu :p

Note: "at the same time" has the same number of letters.
 
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