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Thread: Q: What is so wrong with hunter "training", a metaphor for mandatory LAC training.

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    Q: What is so wrong with hunter "training", a metaphor for mandatory LAC training.

    Thank GODness but today is beautiful. The golden delicious Fall colors exceed one's ability to praise them enough.

    This morning I walked the dog, that we are sitting, before church. On our way home I watched a car pull off and stop adjacent to a game trail that crosses in about the middle of my 1200 feet of property along the road. That's not an uncommon occurrence especially with the photogenic trees, our bicycle-like flower planter and spotty cellphone service.

    But a man and child all dressed in blayze-orange got out and loaded up with their long guns. Obviously kid hunting season is upon us and dad was out demonstrating his understanding of hunting regulations to his child. Demonstrating his spotty recollection of trespass laws as they strode up the trail barely a hundred yards from my house, stretching the definition of my curtilage as they enjoyed the improved trail.

    This is precisely the failure to abide the law that I read here. This is precisely the failure to abide the law that I expect from state trained 'hunters'. This is precisely the failure to abide disagreeable laws that I expect from state trained permitted gun carriers, be they long or hand guns. State mandated training is wrong.

    I hurried the dog home, intending to blast any deer in ear shot deep deep deeper into the woods with a full volley from my Evil Black 870 Shotgun. Lucky for them my guest's breakfast was waiting.

    As I read The Character of Nations and read the prating-chatter here and battle my local idiots on abiding the law, it becomes clear that common ruffian scofflaws are at the base of the Obamanation. ******* it! ******* them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    .....But a man and child all dressed in blayze-orange got out and loaded up with their long guns. Obviously kid hunting season is upon us and dad was out demonstrating his understanding of hunting regulations to his child. Demonstrating his spotty recollection of trespass laws as they strode up the trail barely a hundred yards from my house, stretching the definition of my curtilage as they enjoyed the improved trail.

    This is precisely the failure to abide the law that I read here. This is precisely the failure to abide the law that I expect from state trained 'hunters'. This is precisely the failure to abide disagreeable laws that I expect from state trained permitted gun carriers, be they long or hand guns. State mandated training is wrong.......

    ...I hurried the dog home, intending to blast any deer in ear shot deep deep deeper into the woods with a full volley from my Evil Black 870 Shotgun. Lucky for them my guest's breakfast was waiting....
    . ******* it! ******* them.
    Doug, I didn't know you were "Youthful" enough to hunt during the "Statewide Youth Gun Deer Hunt" weekend.

    And, just because a person is "trained" does not mean they will abide by that training. Get any speeding tickets or other traffic violations in your life?

    And I agree, 'tis a beautiful day

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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Doug, I didn't know you were "Youthful" enough to hunt during the "Statewide Youth Gun Deer Hunt" weekend. And, just because a person is "trained" does not mean they will abide by that training. Get any speeding tickets or other traffic violations in your life?

    And I agree, 'tis a beautiful day
    I was walking a neighbor's dog and not hunting. And yes, I got my most recent traffic citation in 1977.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    I was walking a neighbor's dog and not hunting. And yes, I got my most recent traffic citation in 1977.
    I'm sure you have not broken a law sence either.
    your confusing me
    I hurried the dog home, intending to blast any deer in ear shot deep deep deeper into the woods with a full volley from my Evil Black 870 Shotgun. Lucky for them my guest's breakfast was waiting.
    intent to hunt ? the dog must be a youth.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    I believe the intent was to have deer retreat further into the woods and away from the scofflaws.

    As a landowner one can hunt certain species any time they darn well please. This doesn't include deer but does include many things that can be taken with an "evil" 870.

    In fact, I'm after a troublesome beaver, ehem...the four legged kind, that has been daming up my creek. I think the 10/22 ought to take care of him, no need to waste money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    I believe the intent was to have deer retreat further into the woods and away from the scofflaws.

    As a landowner one can hunt certain species any time they darn well please. This doesn't include deer but does include many things that can be taken with an "evil" 870.

    In fact, I'm after a troublesome beaver, ehem...the four legged kind, that has been daming up my creek. I think the 10/22 ought to take care of him, no need to waste money.
    hmm, well whatever.
    Last edited by XxCaMeLxxToSiSxX; 10-10-2010 at 05:50 PM.

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    Yes indeed the woods are lovely when God gets out his paintbrush. I just returned from escorting my 13 year old grandson on his youth hunt. Warm weather, slight breeze, the woods a canvas of color and spending time with one's progeny and we even saw a deer. Life doesn't get much better. With that in mind I join the discussion of this thread. When we discuss mandatory or elected training we must be especially aware when it involves hunting. In 2003 another amendment was added to Wisconsin's constitution. It is Article I section 26 and it reads "The people have the right to hunt, fish, trap and take game subject only to reasonable regulations as prescribed by law". In the eyes of the judiciary I would guess the courts would consider such laws that regulate trespassing and hunter certification as well as other DNR rules as reasonable. Fortunately the phrase "subject to reasonable regulations as prescribed by law" doesn't appear in Article I section 25. Because the activity of hunting appears in both amendments a person must be careful to keep any associated actions in proper context.

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    Why didn't you act like a reasonable person and inform him that he was trespassing instead of running home to attempt to fire off a bunch of shots? Perhaps the youth would have learned more about respecting property rights from the experiance. Now the adult and the youth still do not know its not ok for them to hunt there. What ever happened to folks being civil and just talking to one another?

    That reminds me of when the forest crop plot next to the 40 that I hunt on was purchased by a new owner. He decied that opening weekend of deer season he was going fire up a chainsaw and run his skidsteer to let us know that the property was no longer huntable instead of stopping by and just telling us so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
    Why didn't you act like a reasonable person and inform him that he was trespassing instead of running home to attempt to fire off a bunch of shots?
    Because he is only capable of confronting people via his keyboard?

    Hunter safety classes are designed to start the process of educating those who wish to take up hunting, it is not a permitting or licensing process by any means. In the classes that I conduct we emphasize that fact repeatedly and push pretty hard for parents to be in class with their kids (many parents do attend when they discover that we welcome them); we are also reminding parents and other adults that they are the mentors and must continue training the youngsters properly. Unfortunately some of the adults do not respect game laws and trespassing laws and pass that on to their kids but my impression is most adults do their best to teach the kids responsible hunting.

    Portraying the entire hunter safety program as useless or ineffective on the basis of the behavior of one person that you observe, Doug, is just silly.

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    You do highlight a valid example of how state mandated training may or may not be effective. And I do agree with what your stance that it should not be required both in relation to hunting as well as carrying for one's own defense because it goes against one's 2A rights. I wouldn't be upset if the state made available, a list of reputable training providers or other educational material available to the public but NOT mandated in anyway.

    My belief is that if training of any sort is mandated to be taken, it's not going to prevent those who simply won't follow laws, good safety, whatever it may be from doing so. Training that one takes that one doesn't care to take but they do so anyways to achieve a goal (perhaps concealed carry is allowed in the future with mandated training) despite it being against their own free will is ineffective. And for those whom would attend training because they have a genuine interest in being a more knowledgeable and safe shooter are likely to go about learning and expanding their knowledge all on their own.

    That's been my experience through personal experiences with friends and family be it shooting or anything else as well as professionally when certain training has been forced upon employees - once it crosses the line from "training available" to "training required" it doesn't really change anything except for causing those who have no desire to learn grumbling about being forced to take the training and still not getting anything out of it.

    Now on the other portion of your post, it's amusing you saw fit to seemingly grow upset about the fathers lack of knowledge and rather than use it as an opportunity to educate somebody and perhaps make a positive impact in a fellow citizen and his son, decide to rush home and try to scare them and any game away. Obviously everybody has their own free will to react how they so choose, but I try to take what I consider the better option and give people the benefit of the doubt and try to make an educational experience out of situations like that rather than resort to being a ***** as a first reaction. And just a potential flaw in your entire argument too, perhaps the father was born prior to 1973 is it? If so, I suppose he wouldn't be required to complete a hunter's education course after all then would he?

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    Quote Originally Posted by professor gun View Post
    Because he is only capable of confronting people via his keyboard?

    Hunter safety classes are designed to start the process of educating those who wish to take up hunting, it is not a permitting or licensing process by any means. In the classes that I conduct we emphasize that fact repeatedly and push pretty hard for parents to be in class with their kids (many parents do attend when they discover that we welcome them); we are also reminding parents and other adults that they are the mentors and must continue training the youngsters properly. Unfortunately some of the adults do not respect game laws and trespassing laws and pass that on to their kids but my impression is most adults do their best to teach the kids responsible hunting.

    Portraying the entire hunter safety program as useless or ineffective on the basis of the behavior of one person that you observe, Doug, is just silly.
    PG you got that one right as usual.

    God I'm starting to hate that guy, and it takes a lot for me to hate. He's a one man band of useless anarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Thank GODness but today is beautiful. The golden delicious Fall colors exceed one's ability to praise them enough.

    This morning I walked the dog, that we are sitting, before church. On our way home I watched a car pull off and stop adjacent to a game trail that crosses in about the middle of my 1200 feet of property along the road. That's not an uncommon occurrence especially with the photogenic trees, our bicycle-like flower planter and spotty cellphone service.

    But a man and child all dressed in blayze-orange got out and loaded up with their long guns. Obviously kid hunting season is upon us and dad was out demonstrating his understanding of hunting regulations to his child. Demonstrating his spotty recollection of trespass laws as they strode up the trail barely a hundred yards from my house, stretching the definition of my curtilage as they enjoyed the improved trail.

    This is precisely the failure to abide the law that I read here. This is precisely the failure to abide the law that I expect from state trained 'hunters'. This is precisely the failure to abide disagreeable laws that I expect from state trained permitted gun carriers, be they long or hand guns. State mandated training is wrong.

    I hurried the dog home, intending to blast any deer in ear shot deep deep deeper into the woods with a full volley from my Evil Black 870 Shotgun. Lucky for them my guest's breakfast was waiting.

    As I read The Character of Nations and read the prating-chatter here and battle my local idiots on abiding the law, it becomes clear that common ruffian scofflaws are at the base of the Obamanation. ******* it! ******* them.
    Wow. Have you taken your meds today? Delusions of grandeur indeed.

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    Professor gun:
    I differ with you on this issue. Any person born after January 1, 1973 is required to take a hunter safety course. Upon paying a fee and then completing the course the person is issued a hunter's certificate(card) and number. In order to purchase a hunting license the first hunting season after completing the course the person is required to present the certificate before he/she can be issued a hunting license. Subsequent licenses may be purchased based on a previous issued license on the presumption that the person had presented a hunter safety certificate at the time they purchased the first license. Most Western states, i.e. Colorado, require that a hunter safety certificate be evidenced before a non-resident hunting license will be issued. Call it what you may but the hunting certificate, paid for and received as a result of completion of hunter safety training, is in fact a permit that allows the purchase of a hunting license. It is the state's permission (permit) to purchase a hunting license for those born after the above date.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 10-11-2010 at 04:26 AM.

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    I have conducted hunter safety education classes since 1988. The most common problem I see among those taking the classes is total lack of awareness of where the muzzle is when they handle a gun as well as the finger always in the trigger guard.

    My personal opinion is that any kid in a family where hunting or shooting is part of the culture should have been taught basic firearms safety long before age 12 by the adults in their life; unfortunately that seems to be the exception. The youngsters in the class take it very seriously (because they want to pass) and I think we start some good habits for gun handling with the class. This needs to be reinforced by the adults and sometimes it is not. For those kids who stick with the good habits I think our program does a lot to reduce firearms accidents.

    Likewise for those who decided to obtain a handgun for self defense and have no prior experience there is lack of familiarity with basic safety. Particularly for those who choose to carry it is important to make the basic safety rules a part of their regular behavior. In the NRA Basic Pistol classes I conduct we spend a lot of time on this because those in the class have not been exposed to safe handling procedures before. If they do not learn this on their own or get training, it is more likely bad things will happen. For a large number of folks, a classroom/range training setting is the best way to learn this.

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    I agree with professor gun. However, I did just sit through the one-day training for the online hunter's safety class a few weeks ago with my girlfriend. There were numerous 12 year olds and many adults attending. I was really disappointed with the 8 (yes, 8) instructors. They were talking in terms that no first time hunter would be able to understand and being too over-specific about things. I think that the hunter's safety system is a great idea, but the online class is better left to adults. They also didn't cover nearly as much as I learned when I took hunter's safety years ago. Professor gun does have a point about adults picking up a firearm for personal safety as well. If they have not grown up with guns or used them, wouldn't some training benefit them?

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    As is the case with any sort of class, the instructor will make it a good class or a crappy class. My personal opinion of the on-line hunter safety class is not at all positive and I do not conduct that course for a number of reasons. I think there is no replacement for face to face instruction and too many show up for the field days with the online course totally unprepared.

    I have seen a number of people who purchase a handgun for personal protection, have no experience at all with handguns, and somehow convince themselves they can figure all of this out without some sort of training. It doesn't have to be a formal class, it can just be someone who is knowledgeable and willing to serve as a mentor. Better for the gun owner is training that is documented (i.e., a class) just in case questions come up later (like after you are involved in a situation) about your skill with a handgun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by professor gun View Post
    As is the case with any sort of class, the instructor will make it a good class or a crappy class. My personal opinion of the on-line hunter safety class is not at all positive and I do not conduct that course for a number of reasons. I think there is no replacement for face to face instruction and too many show up for the field days with the online course totally unprepared.
    I can believe that, I haven't gone through that particular class online or in-person but imagine it would somewhat relate to when I was first getting into shooting about a year ago. Me being the tech guy I am looked over a lot of different sources online be it articles, videos, etc. I did pickup some good stuff from doing so, but I also picked up techniques which I then went to the range nearby (and in winter so typically very few around then to correct me) to practice. It wasn't anything that was a safety risk that I was "training" myself, but just using poor grip and practiced enough before I was corrected that it took a lot more practice to break that habit. Started to let myself sort of anticipate the recoil too. Things that wouldn't have wasted time and ammo to re-train if I sought out some professional instruction or the company of more experienced shooters to point out things before they grew to be habit

    Sometimes there's just no replacement for face to face education.

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