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Thread: The 1911 - A Fatal Flaw

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    The 1911 - A Fatal Flaw

    While looking for a review on the Remington 1911 R1 pistol I found this video. OK. I KNOW about the pin but I have NEVER heard of the pin actually being pushed in during shooting rendering the gun useless. Anyone have any experience with this "design flaw"?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhO...layer_embedded

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    While looking for a review on the Remington 1911 R1 pistol I found this video. OK. I KNOW about the pin but I have NEVER heard of the pin actually being pushed in during shooting rendering the gun useless. Anyone have any experience with this "design flaw"?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhO...layer_embedded
    That is a grip I have never seen taught, and common sense would dictate it would not be a strong practice.

    Laying your trigger finger along the slide can help with point shooting, but you should move it immediately to the trigger upon sight acquisition, and after the safety is moved (edit, safety).
    Last edited by Justincase; 10-11-2010 at 06:45 PM.

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    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    That grip is just plain ridicules and I have never seen anyone use it. Watch this Todd Jarrett video for the correct grip of a semi-auto pistol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    A lot of your pressure is done with the middle two fingers, why would someone use a grip like that?
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    that looks and sounds like it came from something extremely old. I have never seen that method of grip either.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    While looking for a review on the Remington 1911 R1 pistol I found this video. OK. I KNOW about the pin but I have NEVER heard of the pin actually being pushed in during shooting rendering the gun useless. Anyone have any experience with this "design flaw"?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhO...layer_embedded
    This just goes to show that even as fine a weapon as the 1911 is, that it's not idiot proof.... If this really concerns you, the pin can be shortened until it is flush with the slide and then the hole countersunk enough to allow you to push the pin when field stripping.
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    That method of point shooting using the middle finger as the trigger finger is technique that has been around from quite a few years. It has become known as the "Vermont Technique" or sometimes "aimed point shooting." It has its proponents but certainly its detractors also. It can work, of course, but it is not without some serious drawbacks. I really wouldn't recommend it for anyone who has a functional index finger.

    Interesting that the video at one point shows a Glock, which wouldn't have the vulnerability described in the video, and targets reportedly shot with non-1911 models. Must have been using up some stock photos as filler.
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    The "fatal flaw" is gripping the gun with two fingers instead of three wrapped around the grip. Gripping the gun properly negates any problem. And besides, the 1911 points so naturally (for me), that I don't need to use my index finger to help me "find" the target.
    Last edited by phred; 10-11-2010 at 11:15 PM.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    The "fatal flaw" is gripping the gun with two fingers instead of three wrapped around the grip. Gripping the gun properly negates any problem. And besides, the 1911 points so naturally (for me), that I don't need to use my index finger to help me "find" the target.
    You are absolutely correct. I think the technique overlooks the fact that one does not need to extend one's index finger to "point" with it. It is just as easy and effective to "point" with an index finger that is bent as if on a trigger. You're simply not pointing with the fingertip as the reference. With proper ergonomics, and a certain amount of muscle memory, the gun becomes an extension of your arm and hand and becomes "the finger."

    What also worries me about that technique is that point shooting most is useful when the target is quite close, and that is no time to have a weaker style of grip on the firearm. It would be easier to disarm someone who uses that grip and to break one or two of their fingers in the process.
    Last edited by Shotgun; 10-11-2010 at 11:56 PM.
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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comp45acp View Post
    That grip is just plain ridicules and I have never seen anyone use it. Watch this Todd Jarrett video for the correct grip of a semi-auto pistol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    This just goes to show that even as fine a weapon as the 1911 is, that it's not idiot proof.... If this really concerns you, the pin can be shortened until it is flush with the slide and then the hole countersunk enough to allow you to push the pin when field stripping.
    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    The "fatal flaw" is gripping the gun with two fingers instead of three wrapped around the grip. Gripping the gun properly negates any problem. And besides, the 1911 points so naturally (for me), that I don't need to use my index finger to help me "find" the target.
    What an incredible crock of _ _ _ _ ! I have exclusively owned and shot 1911s for around 20 years and have never had such a thing even think of happening. That grip is fatal. Please do not pay any attention to this video.

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    The style of shooting shown was somewhat popular in the seventies. I found that it was useless for me beyond 5 or 6 yards. My index finger tended to "crook" as I pulled the trigger with the middle finger. Contrary to what the guy in the video implies my accuracy was bad beyond the range at which I could just as well used the gun as a club. Shotgun is correct. A better way is practise, practise, practise with a conventional grip until you attain good "muscle memory". They is no short cut to accuracy. Nothing will make a person an instant Ed Topperwain. Also the video showed the technique being used on a revolver. I wonder what the end of his index finger looks like after all the lead shavings and powder flashes. Not to mention the effect it may have on cylinder timing.

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    1911's are beautiful things but they need tweaking and tinkering from time to time. The firing pin block dropped on my Para 45-14 so I bought an oversized firing pin block from EGW for 10 bucks that will take care of the problem.

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    Note the technique Jack Ruby uses, albeit at close range...

    http://www.crimemagazine.com/did-jac...-harvey-oswald

    Carry on

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input guys!

    I found that strange video in a 1911 shooter's forum as a recent post. I found it strange too but since I have not fired a 1911 since 1982 I decided to "Ask the experts" A.K.A. OCDO members.

    I won't follow that video's advice that is for sure. Thanks again everyone!

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