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Thread: Here is Why you Carry a 10mm While In the Woods...

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    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
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    Here is Why you Carry a 10mm While In the Woods...

    Saw this story today and it just confirmed to me that a 10mm handgun while in the woods should be considered standard equipment.

    Three bear cubs and a momma decided to attack a hunter while in a tree stand. I'm guessing he was bow hunting and the thought of trying to shoot a bear off of a tree that you are perched in with a bow (or even a long gun) seems to be very difficult indeed.

    Pistol, not so much.

    That being the case, I have no clue what the regs are for carrying a gun while in the woods. Can someone give me the basics or link to a thread that already has the details on that?

    Here's the link to the original article: Michigan Man Who Smelled Like Chicken Mauled by Bear While Hunting
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Expert View Post
    Saw this story today and it just confirmed to me that a 10mm handgun while in the woods should be considered standard equipment.

    Three bear cubs and a momma decided to attack a hunter while in a tree stand. I'm guessing he was bow hunting and the thought of trying to shoot a bear off of a tree that you are perched in with a bow (or even a long gun) seems to be very difficult indeed.

    Pistol, not so much.

    That being the case, I have no clue what the regs are for carrying a gun while in the woods. Can someone give me the basics or link to a thread that already has the details on that?

    Here's the link to the original article: Michigan Man Who Smelled Like Chicken Mauled by Bear While Hunting

    In Michigan if you have a CPL you can possess a handgun for self-defense as long as you are not trying to take game with it.

    This is in the DNRE hunting guide.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    I sent an email to the DNR to confirm this about carrying a pistol while bowhunting:

    "Can a person with a Concealed Pistol License (CPL) who is bow-hunting for deer
    during the archery season (in camouflage), carry his/her pistol in an openly
    exposed holster (open-carry), as long as there is no attempt to hunt game with
    the pistol?"

    Response (Terry Cook) - 09/01/2009 03:39 PM
    As long as there is no attempt to take game and you are in compliance with the
    restrictions (if any) of your CPL, a person with a CPL may carry either open or
    concealed while bow hunting.

    Michigan DNR
    Law Enforcement Division

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    From DNR website:

    Archery Deer Seasons
    During the archery deer seasons, it is illegal to carry afield a pistol, revolver or other firearm while bow hunting for deer.
    Exceptions: This prohibition does not apply to pistols carried under authority of a concealed pistol license or properly carried under authority of a specific exception from the requirement of a concealed pistol license. However, a concealed pistol license does not authorize the individual to use the pistol to take game except as provided by law.

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    Why didn't he use whatever weapon he had in his possesion at the time (that he was using for hunting) to fend off the bears? I'm assuming it would have been a bow...(I don't know, it doesn't say it in the article and I'm not a hunter)

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Fried Chicken Scent Cover is NOT SOLD IN STORES!

    Gee, I wonder why?

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    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
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    @T Vance - I've never hunted from a tree stand, but I'm guessing they are not really stable...at least not for defending yourself from a bear.

    The most popular tree stands are the "climbing" kind which can only fit around a pretty skinny tree. They also provide a terribly small level of mobility when perched in one. You pretty much can sit down, and stand up. Turning, twisting, and manuvering in those things is very dangerous and if you do anything other than sit, or stand and take a straight-line shot, you run the risk of falling out.

    So if you had a bow, the idea of standing up, twisting around to take a shot in a straight down and "behind" you orientation is asking to fall out of the stand. Any smart tree stand hunter would be tethered in though so he wouldn't fall to the ground. Instead, he'd become a meat pinata for the bears.

    Contrast that with a pistol. You don't stand up at all...instead, you unholster your firearm, lean over so you can get a clean shot at the bears, and pull the trigger.

    Trying to defend with a bow is a nightmare...the same goes for a long gun because the maneuverability problem would be the same.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Expert View Post
    @T Vance - I've never hunted from a tree stand, but I'm guessing they are not really stable...at least not for defending yourself from a bear.

    The most popular tree stands are the "climbing" kind which can only fit around a pretty skinny tree. They also provide a terribly small level of mobility when perched in one. You pretty much can sit down, and stand up. Turning, twisting, and manuvering in those things is very dangerous and if you do anything other than sit, or stand and take a straight-line shot, you run the risk of falling out.

    So if you had a bow, the idea of standing up, twisting around to take a shot in a straight down and "behind" you orientation is asking to fall out of the stand. Any smart tree stand hunter would be tethered in though so he wouldn't fall to the ground. Instead, he'd become a meat pinata for the bears.

    Contrast that with a pistol. You don't stand up at all...instead, you unholster your firearm, lean over so you can get a clean shot at the bears, and pull the trigger.

    Trying to defend with a bow is a nightmare...the same goes for a long gun because the maneuverability problem would be the same.
    From my experience, the climbing tree stands are very stable once they are in place (at least mine is). I have a safety harness on at all times and attached to the tree, so I am covered for falls just fine. Shooting at something directly under that stand with a bow would be an issue even with a safety harness on.

    For me, I probably would not want to take a shot with a bow at cubs if I thought I could handle it otherwise. I carry a firearm while bow hunting, so I have alternatives in any event. It is a difficult situation in any event: defend yourself from a cub, mom will be after you; defend yourself from mom, possibly doom the cubs to die. I know I would choose to live and defend myself, but I would do everything I could to ensure using my pistol would be my last line of defense.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    And here is why you carry while in Troy...

    http://www.theoaklandpress.com/artic...a570914170.txt

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    And here is why you carry while in Troy...

    http://www.theoaklandpress.com/artic...a570914170.txt
    Sounds like an idiot had an exotic and illegal pet which escaped.
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Sounds like an idiot had an exotic and illegal pet which escaped.
    Possibly, I remember seeing news articles going back about 2 years about possible cougar sightings in West Bloomfield as well.

    Heck, there are coyotes in my neighborhood in Royal Oak at times!

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    About 15 or 18 years ago there was a "liger" on the loose in the Steriling Heights area where my now dead grandpa lived.

    10mm is a great choice for 2 legged issues, and an even better choice for most 4 legged issues. I consider it the best round available for all purpose defense.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    About 15 or 18 years ago there was a "liger" on the loose in the Steriling Heights area where my now dead grandpa lived.

    10mm is a great choice for 2 legged issues, and an even better choice for most 4 legged issues. I consider it the best round available for all purpose defense.
    I'm calling you a liger on the Liger!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    I never enter the woods without a 357 magnum never never never !!!

    We have wolves and cougars withing a few hundred yards to a couple miles of my home. Not to mention coyote packs.

    The guy who was attacked is a relative of a friend.


    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    From DNR website:

    Archery Deer Seasons
    During the archery deer seasons, it is illegal to carry afield a pistol, revolver or other firearm while bow hunting for deer.
    Exceptions: This prohibition does not apply to pistols carried under authority of a concealed pistol license or properly carried under authority of a specific exception from the requirement of a concealed pistol license. However, a concealed pistol license does not authorize the individual to use the pistol to take game except as provided by law.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Does anybody know the ins and outs of hunting with a pistol in Michigan? The only thing I've been able to find out about pistols, is that you can poses one with a CPL, as was cited previously.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Does anybody know the ins and outs of hunting with a pistol in Michigan? The only thing I've been able to find out about pistols, is that you can poses one with a CPL, as was cited previously.
    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1584--,00.html

    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1578--,00.html

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Living in Troy, I told my wife once again today she needs to get her CPL because of the cougar. She rolled her eyes at me. Hopefully one day she'll learn without having to get hurt first.

    I may not have a 10mm, however I do carry a .40 cal with two spare magazines. 40 rounds total consisting of Pow'r Ball and Federal HST should potentially fall even a bear if I need it to (Granted, if I'm shooting bears though, I'd be wishing I had FMJ)
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    This happened a couple miles from my house. That's why I carry a .44mag.

    These same four bears have been spotted several times this summer. Their presence in the area was not a secret. They have been seen several time during daylight hours. It appears they have lost all fear of man.

    Unfortunately, the DNRE seems to be blaming this incident on the victim. At the present time there are no plans to do anything to the bears. In other jurisdictions, they would already be rugs...

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    I may not have a 10mm, however I do carry a .40 cal with two spare magazines. 40 rounds total consisting of Pow'r Ball and Federal HST should potentially fall even a bear if I need it to (Granted, if I'm shooting bears though, I'd be wishing I had FMJ)
    For a bear, you'd be wishing you had extra hot JHP ammo in a 10MM. My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball. FMJ in .40 short and weak will make a hole scarcely bigger than 4/10 of an inch.

    Honestly, the 10mm outclasses .40 in a similar way to 9mm vs .380. If you can handle the grip size of either a stock G20 or a Robar converted G20, and you take self defense seriously, you owe it to yourself to at least consider getting a G20C. You can still shoot .40 with a conversion barrel, and I believe a different spring. If you use a non ported .40 barrel, the recoil even stays about the same for cheap practice shooting.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-12-2010 at 10:25 PM.
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    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Living in Troy, I told my wife once again today she needs to get her CPL because of the cougar.
    The only cougar I am aware of in Lansing come out on Thursday and Friday night. They can usually be found at "Rum Runners". I haven't shot any yet, but then again, I haven't been attacked by any.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Regular Member Michigun's Avatar
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    lol Q.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Expert View Post
    @T Vance - I've never hunted from a tree stand, but I'm guessing they are not really stable...at least not for defending yourself from a bear.

    The most popular tree stands are the "climbing" kind which can only fit around a pretty skinny tree. They also provide a terribly small level of mobility when perched in one. You pretty much can sit down, and stand up. Turning, twisting, and manuvering in those things is very dangerous and if you do anything other than sit, or stand and take a straight-line shot, you run the risk of falling out.

    So if you had a bow, the idea of standing up, twisting around to take a shot in a straight down and "behind" you orientation is asking to fall out of the stand. Any smart tree stand hunter would be tethered in though so he wouldn't fall to the ground. Instead, he'd become a meat pinata for the bears.

    Contrast that with a pistol. You don't stand up at all...instead, you unholster your firearm, lean over so you can get a clean shot at the bears, and pull the trigger.

    Trying to defend with a bow is a nightmare...the same goes for a long gun because the maneuverability problem would be the same.
    Your info on bow hunting is interesting to say the least. I take it your not a bow hunter?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Hunting Mama's Avatar
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    I just got back from bear hunting in Michigan and must say I had a real issue with not being able to carry a side arm out on stand with me.

    Being from WI we don't have CPL's so it would have been totally illegal for me to carry one. I must hunt from the ground now due to a muscle disease and the fact that I am 6 months pregnant. I felt like total bait sitting there.
    We had a mountain lion sighting close and a pair of wolf tracks following my husband out each night. My rifle was great to have, but it wouldn't help much for a close encounter.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Flintlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    For a bear, you'd be wishing you had extra hot JHP ammo in a 10MM. My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball. FMJ in .40 short and weak will make a hole scarcely bigger than 4/10 of an inch.

    Honestly, the 10mm outclasses .40 in a similar way to 9mm vs .380. If you can handle the grip size of either a stock G20 or a Robar converted G20, and you take self defense seriously, you owe it to yourself to at least consider getting a G20C. You can still shoot .40 with a conversion barrel, and I believe a different spring. If you use a non ported .40 barrel, the recoil even stays about the same for cheap practice shooting.
    Michigander, I respect your opinion on this matter, but I have to respectfully disagree with your ammunition choice. I carry a GLOCK 20 in the woods of Alaska and do so regularly, and would never load my magazines with any type of hollowpoint ammunition due to the penetration defficiencies as compared to the FMJ and hard cast rounds provided by Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, etc.. Do you carry Hornady XTP or something else?
    Peace through superior firepower

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  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunting Mama View Post
    I just got back from bear hunting in Michigan and must say I had a real issue with not being able to carry a side arm out on stand with me.

    Being from WI we don't have CPL's so it would have been totally illegal for me to carry one. I must hunt from the ground now due to a muscle disease and the fact that I am 6 months pregnant. I felt like total bait sitting there.
    We had a mountain lion sighting close and a pair of wolf tracks following my husband out each night. My rifle was great to have, but it wouldn't help much for a close encounter.
    Remember that an out of state concealed carry license, such as Utah or Florida would satisfy the requirements of being "licensed to carry", which is what our dumb ass registration process calls itself. You still couldn't carry concealed or in a car in Michigan, but you would have most the same rights with your handguns as a Michigan resident with Michigan registered handguns. The only difference I know of is that I believe the federal gun free school zones act requires home state licensing for exemption, so I believe that still would be a no carry legally zone.

    Or at least that's my understanding of it last I looked up the laws. Not legal advice, but I do suggest looking into it if you'll be coming back here.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-13-2010 at 12:55 AM.
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