Here is Why you Carry a 10mm While In the Woods...

lol Q.

The Expert said:

@T Vance - I've never hunted from a tree stand, but I'm guessing they are not really stable...at least not for defending yourself from a bear.

The most popular tree stands are the "climbing" kind which can only fit around a pretty skinny tree. They also provide a terribly small level of mobility when perched in one. You pretty much can sit down, and stand up. Turning, twisting, and manuvering in those things is very dangerous and if you do anything other than sit, or stand and take a straight-line shot, you run the risk of falling out.

So if you had a bow, the idea of standing up, twisting around to take a shot in a straight down and "behind" you orientation is asking to fall out of the stand. Any smart tree stand hunter would be tethered in though so he wouldn't fall to the ground. Instead, he'd become a meat pinata for the bears.

Contrast that with a pistol. You don't stand up at all...instead, you unholster your firearm, lean over so you can get a clean shot at the bears, and pull the trigger.

Trying to defend with a bow is a nightmare...the same goes for a long gun because the maneuverability problem would be the same.

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Your info on bow hunting is interesting to say the least. I take it your not a bow hunter?

I just got back from bear hunting in Michigan and must say I had a real issue with not being able to carry a side arm out on stand with me.

Being from WI we don't have CPL's so it would have been totally illegal for me to carry one. I must hunt from the ground now due to a muscle disease and the fact that I am 6 months pregnant. I felt like total bait sitting there.
We had a mountain lion sighting close and a pair of wolf tracks following my husband out each night. My rifle was great to have, but it wouldn't help much for a close encounter.

Michigander said:

For a bear, you'd be wishing you had extra hot JHP ammo in a 10MM. My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball. FMJ in .40 short and weak will make a hole scarcely bigger than 4/10 of an inch.

Honestly, the 10mm outclasses .40 in a similar way to 9mm vs .380. If you can handle the grip size of either a stock G20 or a Robar converted G20, and you take self defense seriously, you owe it to yourself to at least consider getting a G20C. You can still shoot .40 with a conversion barrel, and I believe a different spring. If you use a non ported .40 barrel, the recoil even stays about the same for cheap practice shooting.

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Michigander, I respect your opinion on this matter, but I have to respectfully disagree with your ammunition choice. I carry a GLOCK 20 in the woods of Alaska and do so regularly, and would never load my magazines with any type of hollowpoint ammunition due to the penetration defficiencies as compared to the FMJ and hard cast rounds provided by Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, etc.. Do you carry Hornady XTP or something else?

Hunting Mama said:

I just got back from bear hunting in Michigan and must say I had a real issue with not being able to carry a side arm out on stand with me.

Being from WI we don't have CPL's so it would have been totally illegal for me to carry one. I must hunt from the ground now due to a muscle disease and the fact that I am 6 months pregnant. I felt like total bait sitting there.
We had a mountain lion sighting close and a pair of wolf tracks following my husband out each night. My rifle was great to have, but it wouldn't help much for a close encounter.

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Remember that an out of state concealed carry license, such as Utah or Florida would satisfy the requirements of being "licensed to carry", which is what our dumb ass registration process calls itself. You still couldn't carry concealed or in a car in Michigan, but you would have most the same rights with your handguns as a Michigan resident with Michigan registered handguns. The only difference I know of is that I believe the federal gun free school zones act requires home state licensing for exemption, so I believe that still would be a no carry legally zone.

Or at least that's my understanding of it last I looked up the laws. Not legal advice, but I do suggest looking into it if you'll be coming back here.

For several years I carried a Smith & Wesson 1006 and loved it. A buddy talked me into selling it to him and I regret that decision. I used to hand load my 10MM hollow points and they were hot enough to drop any black bear. But my Smith & Wesson 586 will also make short work of a bear.

Michigander said:

For a bear, you'd be wishing you had extra hot JHP ammo in a 10MM. My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball. FMJ in .40 short and weak will make a hole scarcely bigger than 4/10 of an inch.

Honestly, the 10mm outclasses .40 in a similar way to 9mm vs .380. If you can handle the grip size of either a stock G20 or a Robar converted G20, and you take self defense seriously, you owe it to yourself to at least consider getting a G20C. You can still shoot .40 with a conversion barrel, and I believe a different spring. If you use a non ported .40 barrel, the recoil even stays about the same for cheap practice shooting.

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Flintlock said:

Michigander, I respect your opinion on this matter, but I have to respectfully disagree with your ammunition choice. I carry a GLOCK 20 in the woods of Alaska and do so regularly, and would never load my magazines with any type of hollowpoint ammunition due to the penetration defficiencies as compared to the FMJ and hard cast rounds provided by Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, etc.. Do you carry Hornady XTP or something else?

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My personal carry gun is a .45 with hand loaded XTP's. Since I don't currently truly need a 10mm for any wildlife, and because of the fact that my extra money needs to go towards tools, I still haven't bought a 10mm, but I do have access to a couple of them when I want to borrow them.

I actually have a lot more respect for your opinions on the matter than I do my own, because you have a more sincere need for that level of power, and I would thus presume have spent a lot more time thinking about it than I have.

My wet phone book tests were geared less towards grizzly attacks, and more towards smaller issues that are common to the abnormally safe wilderness we have around here. At least I consider it abnormally safe relative to some more deadly environments.

What I did was use an old coat, a wood block, and the wet phone book to test the 10mm round I was discussing, which was a fringe of how hot it can be aggressive bonded JHP, I don't know the bullet manufacturer. It blew the living **** out of the test target. I would predict no problems whatsoever killing a charging black bear with that ammo.

In order to test more sizeable bear potency, I'd probably use a piece of hardwood to simulate a skull, then a gallon jug of water or two, and finally a wet phone book, then I'd do the same with a similarly hot FMJ.

My problem with FMJ's is that I was shot by one, specifically a x25 round when my CZ52 fell on the ground and shot me. It was going a little bit faster than a 10mm load would probably go, and made a nice and neat 3/10 of an inch hole through my leg, and I didn't at first even know I'd been shot. A 10mm HP round would have probably blown my leg almost off. It is a story that proves the validity of both shot placement and stopping power. (Not to mention the stupidity of commies and the importance of the 4 rules being followed religiously). My thought is that a nice and neat .40" hole is a lot less useful than a gaping baseball size hole, but penetration is certainly the key issue here, because it's all about getting to the central nervous system to disrupt it.

If you have done any ammo tests with extra hot bonded JHP 10mm that suggests it to be insufficient for Alaskan deadly big animals, or have any other well rounded reasoning, I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, I will probably end up doing my own sometime soon, if for no other reason than personal knowledge.

malignity said:

Living in Troy, I told my wife once again today she needs to get her CPL because of the cougar. She rolled her eyes at me. Hopefully one day she'll learn without having to get hurt first.

I may not have a 10mm, however I do carry a .40 cal with two spare magazines. 40 rounds total consisting of Pow'r Ball and Federal HST should potentially fall even a bear if I need it to (Granted, if I'm shooting bears though, I'd be wishing I had FMJ)

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Just one more to add to the list...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/politics/25373488/detail.html

Looks like the state will go after the bear after all...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/25376177/detail.html

If they don't the people will. I read the moronic save the Teddy bear posts below on that link. I just love how people from downstate still think they know what's best for those of us who live here. Chad lives right down the street from me, and I can bet unless the State puts momma down the people up here will. She is dangerous and once her and her cubs spend the winter in hibernation they all will come out in spring with even less fear of humans. Then we will have four dangerous bears roaming the area. Anyone who knows about bears will tell you they are scavengers and they more often than most people realize raid trash cans and dumpsters. So it's only a matter of time till there's a violent confrontation unless the DNR can take momma out in front of the cubs so they realize humans are to be feared, and not the other way around.

PDinDetroit said:

Looks like the state will go after the bear after all...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/25376177/detail.html

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Bailenforcer said:

For several years I carried a Smith & Wesson 1006 and loved it. A buddy talked me into selling it to him and I regret that decision. I used to hand load my 100MM hollow points and they were hot enough to drop any black bear. But my Smith & Wesson 586 will also make short work of a bear.

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...I don't think that a 100MM round would have a problem regardless of how hot it is
:-D

Evil Creamsicle said:

...I don't think that a 100MM round would have a problem regardless of how hot it is
:-D

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Shoulder-Fired? OUCH!

Hmm Let's ask Ted Nugent.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYyHNgeFA8


"My life is hunting and self defense, and my caliber of choice for more than 20 years is the mighty 10mm, especially in the full house Cor Bon ammo loads.

I've taken big game across North America and Africa with various 10mm handguns, and also carry 10mm pistols as my daily sidearm.
I recently came into possession of a fine Wilson Combat Hunter 1911 in this ideal caliber, and cannot say enough glowing accolades about it. As is to expected from the worldclass Wilson 1911 masters, this pistol is virtually flawless in form, function, accuracy and reliability. At the steel plate range, the perfectly balanced pistol points right where I'm looking, and in recent timed law enforcement qualifications, my center mass shots and speeds were equal to and better than my fellow LEOs shooting 9mm, .40 S&W and .45ACP.
At the 100 yard range from a shooting bench and bags, 100% of my shots shooting Cor Bon 165 grain hollow points were all in the vitals of a full size deer target.

The trigger is crisp and clean, the sights clear and expeditious on target, and the overall feel of the handgun is everything a shootist could ask for.
For daily carry, backup in bear country, or as the pistol of choice as a main handgun hunting rig, the Wilson Combat Hunter is as good a choice as there is."

Ted Nugent

Evil Creamsicle said:

...I don't think that a 100MM round would have a problem regardless of how hot it is
:-D

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kptr5OOLOHk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw


more 10 MM reviews

I don't think anyone is questioning a 10mm round, only the 100mm round it appears you mistyped.

PDinDetroit said:

I don't think anyone is questioning a 10mm round, only the 100mm round it appears you mistyped.

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On such a serious forum, humor can be so easily lost sometimes :-D

My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball

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Now THAT sounds cool. I'm going to start some wet phone book tests of my own.

Wait...I don't know how to go about it. How do such test work?

Simple.

A wet phone book can be a very good, easy, cheap alternative to ballistics gelatin, and works almost just as well.

What to do:

1. Take a phone book, and plop it in a bucket of water.

2. Leave it there for about 32 hours, so that the pages kind of goo together and obtain a fleshlike consistency.

3. Find a gun chambered in the caliber you want to test, and load it

4. Blow the living hell out of the phone book. For best results, fire one round center of mass, and then inspect the damage.

ETA: Take the phone book out of the bucket and put it downrange before you shoot it.

EATA: Take the phone book downrange, not the bucket.

While I do like the undeniable power of the 10mm, for me, I believe it to be less than practical. I only own one handgun at the moment (can't afford more right now) and I don't reload. I simply can't go to Walmart, meijer, etc and buy a box of 10mm. The only place that sells it is gun stores. I need to stick with something that is a common round in case we have another another ammo shortage, wide scale zombie apocalypse etc. I want a gun i can go almost anywhere and get ammo for, thus the .40... though I doubt it would be ideal for a bear or something, if put in that scenario, I would have no second thoughts of using my .40, and am fairly confident that I could get the job done with said firearm, even if i had to completely unload, drop mag, rinse and repeat. I think most animals will probably stop doing what they're doing if they get 14 rounds of gunfire dumped into them in less than 10 seconds. Even with a thick hide, a 900+ ft/s projectile is going to do some damage, especially if the shooter is aiming for the neck/face area.

malignity said:

While I do like the undeniable power of the 10mm, for me, I believe it to be less than practical. I only own one handgun at the moment (can't afford more right now) and I don't reload. I simply can't go to Walmart, meijer, etc and buy a box of 10mm. .

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Again, the cure is simple. In your position, I would probably sell the .40 unless I had some vast sentimental attachment to it, then I'd get a ported 10 and a non ported .40 barrel to go with it. Same ish recoil for both rounds, except the .40 is much cheaper for practice while still shooting similarly. And if you ever do choose to get into reloading, which you can do for around 100 dollars with Lee gear, you can load 10mm no problem.

Also, in terms of ammo shortages, it is advisable to have a quantity of defensive ammo in storage which you are comfortable with as an indefinite supply. I don't ever suggest getting a gun based on ammo, unless maybe a .22. Defense ammo in large amounts should be an immediate concern when you get a gun, not something that should be looked at as a down the road issue. That is more of an issue of hoping range fodder stays cheap. Which it will, if you reload.