Here is Why you Carry a 10mm While In the Woods...

Remember a wet telephone book is a comparative test, not relative to hydrostatic shock induced in thin skinned animals (humans).

Other than asking for human test subjects it's the best we got.

The FBI testing in Ballistic gelatin is also flawed. They have admitted this finally in their findings. Gelatin can not sufficiently imitate a warm liquid medium as a flesh and blood human being. Again ballistic Gelatin is considered comparative. Frankly there is no perfect medium.

Now White tail deer are in fact similar to humans due to the thin skin as opposed to a thick hide and the relative size of muscle groups, organs and bone structure. Those of us who hand gun hunt White Tail swear by the 10 MM, 357 Magnum, 41 and 44 magnums. I have used all except the 41 mag. The 44 is obvious, but the 357 magnum 125 grain JHP at a Muzzle velocity of 1450 plus FPS is impressive. The 10 MM is also quite impressive with a one shot kill.

For that reason I still hand gun hunt with a 357. And if I get another 10 MM I would also.

Evil Creamsicle said:

A wet phone book can be a very good, easy, cheap alternative to ballistics gelatin, and works almost just as well.

What to do:

1. Take a phone book, and plop it in a bucket of water.

2. Leave it there for about 32 hours, so that the pages kind of goo together and obtain a fleshlike consistency.

3. Find a gun chambered in the caliber you want to test, and load it

4. Blow the living hell out of the phone book. For best results, fire one round center of mass, and then inspect the damage.

ETA: Take the phone book out of the bucket and put it downrange before you shoot it.

EATA: Take the phone book downrange, not the bucket.

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I've been wanting to do a wet phonebook test too to be honest, to see what kinda results I get with my Pow'r Ball ammo vs Hornady Critical Defense.

The problem is, is that I can't find a phonebook. Silly I know, but they just don't make them like they used to. I haven't seen one in years.

I used to do demonstrations at police depts for American Body Armor. We had these mannequins with the chest cavity filled with a gray colored clay. This allowed us to show the differences between the blunt trauma felt be tween different vest types and brands. But we also used it without a vest covering and it was a pretty graphic way to show wound channel effects. Again it's not perfect, but it is an interesting comparison test.

malignity said:

I've been wanting to do a wet phonebook test too to be honest, to see what kinda results I get with my Pow'r Ball ammo vs Hornady Critical Defense.

The problem is, is that I can't find a phonebook. Silly I know, but they just don't make them like they used to. I haven't seen one in years.

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malignity said:

I've been wanting to do a wet phonebook test too to be honest, to see what kinda results I get with my Pow'r Ball ammo vs Hornady Critical Defense.

The problem is, is that I can't find a phonebook. Silly I know, but they just don't make them like they used to. I haven't seen one in years.

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Use water jugs with a few layers of denim over the front. The jugs are six inches across at their widest point and it'll travel roughly 1.5-2 times further in water than in more realistic media....per the info given to the guys at the Box O' Truth.

DocGKR, a recognized expert, told me, "Be aware that water generally reveals the maximum upset which can occur to a projectile in soft tissue -your actual result in living tissue may be somewhat less. You can also use the water testing to get a rough estimate of bullet penetration depth in soft tissue--bullets penetrate approximately 1.6 to 2 times as much in water as in soft tissue".

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The cloth covering the first jug is important because I've seen too many HP bullets perform very well on bare water jugs only to fail miserably when passing through clothing. Some of those were pretty big names in self-defense ammo.

Bronson

Very true of pathetic hollow point performance when encountering clothing. The Detroit Police use those what I call rubber bullets where the hollow point is filled with a rubber plug. These have had many miserable failures from bouncing off windshields to becoming lodged in thick winter coats of perps. Some of this has made me use the Corbon 115 GR jacketed hollow point at 1350 FPS (4 inch barrel) in my Browning which has a 4 5/8 barrel. I have Chrono'd at slightly over 1400 fps. Although I am not a huge 9 MM fan this one has please me with proven performance. I actually considered one of the slightly longer barrels to get around 1450 fps.

So far I have had no problems with Corbon hollow points failing to expand. I still wonder about the Glock 10 MM and if I might like it as a carry weapon.

Bronson said:

Use water jugs with a few layers of denim over the front. The jugs are six inches across at their widest point and it'll travel roughly 1.5-2 times further in water than in more realistic media....per the info given to the guys at the Box O' Truth.



The cloth covering the first jug is important because I've seen too many HP bullets perform very well on bare water jugs only to fail miserably when passing through clothing. Some of those were pretty big names in self-defense ammo.

Bronson

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Bailenforcer said:

Very true of pathetic hollow point performance when encountering clothing. The Detroit Police use those what I call rubber bullets where the hollow point is filled with a rubber plug. These have had many miserable failures from bouncing off windshields to becoming lodged in thick winter coats of perps. Some of this has made me use the Corbon 115 GR jacketed hollow point at 1350 FPS (4 inch barrel) in my Browning which has a 4 5/8 barrel. I have Chrono'd at slightly over 1400 fps. Although I am not a huge 9 MM fan this one has please me with proven performance. I actually considered one of the slightly longer barrels to get around 1450 fps.

So far I have had no problems with Corbon hollow points failing to expand. I still wonder about the Glock 10 MM and if I might like it as a carry weapon.

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Its good if you don't think glocks are super uncomfortable to grip like I do.

Wouldn't a solution to the whole "JHP Struggle With Clothing" thing be to simply stagger your rounds so that every other shot is a FMJ?

That's what I've always done with my 1911 from day one because I came across this debate and thought that it would be the most obvious solution.

I would only be concerned with over penetration. i like to keep one of the mags with FMJ so I have a choice.

I can see over penetration being an issue with the 10mm...but would it be the same with a .45?

The Expert said:

Wouldn't a solution to the whole "JHP Struggle With Clothing" thing be to simply stagger your rounds so that every other shot is a FMJ?

That's what I've always done with my 1911 from day one because I came across this debate and thought that it would be the most obvious solution.

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I guess I'm a bit confused since when a JHP fails to expand it acts exactly like FMJ. ... so what would be the advantage of staggering JHP (that at best will expand but at worst will act like FMJ) with FMJ (that at best .. and even at worst... will not expand)?

Another article posted today...

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...gerous-dont-blame-hunter&template=fullarticle

ERIC SHARP said:

Both scenarios are typical of misguided city dwellers who wouldn't recognize a wild animal if it bit them on the butt and who love all animals until they become a nuisance or a threat.

Like most city dwellers, the concern these people have for wild animals is proportional to their distance from the animals and inversely proportional to the nuisance factor that the animals present.

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BWAA-HA-HA!!! I'll bet the comments section is "lively" today!

WHAT!?!?

If it fails to expand the hollow point would act more like a FMJ. So if you have staggered ammo then you have effectively a full mag of FMJ is they are of the questioned JHP's. That would be pointless.

The Expert said:

Wouldn't a solution to the whole "JHP Struggle With Clothing" thing be to simply stagger your rounds so that every other shot is a FMJ?

That's what I've always done with my 1911 from day one because I came across this debate and thought that it would be the most obvious solution.

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Great big hands on a tiny keyboard lol

Evil Creamsicle said:

...I don't think that a 100MM round would have a problem regardless of how hot it is
:-D

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Over penetration is one of the most misunderstood subjects.

If I shoot you in the index finger with a .25 auto it will over penetrate.

It's all about shot placement. A solid hit center mass will not produce over penetration in most cases.

In my lifetimes I have been involved in situations. I practice dropping low to shoot an perp if innocents are behind him. If I drop low and fire on a 35 to 45 degree angle upwards chances of hitting innocents directly behind him are greatly reduced. Or circling the target/perp quickly during a confrontation to reduce anyone being behind him helps as well, if possible. It helps to know your surroundings at all times, so moving laterally during target acquisition will not only confuse the perp but give you an advantage tactically if done right and practiced. I used to take a Pumpkin and practice running or walking sideways fast in a 180 degree circle pattern while shooting it.
After a while you will get good enough to shoot while running for cover or getting position on a perp to minimize innocents in the line of fire.

The Expert said:

I can see over penetration being an issue with the 10mm...but would it be the same with a .45?

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Um what handgun round would leave a softball sized hole on a telephone book? I worked for to be unnamed telephone company and had many such books. Never had any handgun round produced a hole even close to a softball. More often than not they produce much smaller holes than what they produce in human flesh. And I have reloaded for just over 37 years from my teens till today. And I have loaded some whopper 44 magnum loads. But softball sized holes in telephone books?





""My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball "

For my 2 cents worth I carried one of the original Colt Delta Elite's for several years as a personal side arm and hunting gun. I took several deer with it and always wanted to try a bear....never happened. :-(
I used to live in Alaska being I spent half my child hood there hunting and fishing I have seen what 15 rounds from an inadequate weapon does to a determined bear....makes it a pissed bear. And the head shot thing....poor choice. Always shoot to break the shoulders then you can stand off and make the kill shot assuming the charge isn't to fast to handle. I actually saw a bear shot in forehead with a 300 weatherby mag. The way the skull is shaped and the thickness of it.....round just bounces off making bear very very mad. And you become bear poo....lol
For me now I have a set of woods guns....A 7 1/2" Ruger 44mag loaded to max pressures and a 6" Ruger gp100 loaded with fmj's... both carried strapped to thigh.....just sayin

Bailenforcer said:

""My wet phone book tests showed me that such rounds are capable of making holes nearly the size of a softball "

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This was hand loaded 10mm HP's which were engineered to expand very aggressively. Again, it was not quite that large. Perhaps a better description would be between regular and soft baseball size. For clarity, I did not measure the holes, I didn't take pictures, I did not have a comparator baseball with me, this is an estimate. Evil Creasicle was there too, and if he feels the size I am describing is off, I hope he'll remember well enough to say so. Certainly in hindsight, it would have been better to document the test, but it was more of an on the spot and off the cuff test which we did with almost no planning.

It has been a while since I did this test, but as best as I remember, the conditions were a yellow pages book which was soaked approximately 15 hours. There may or may not have been a board and a beat to hell Carhart coat in front of the wetpack at the time, I do not remember, nor do I remember the temperature at the time, but I do know that we were about 4 yards from the target.

Certainly it would be a decent idea to use the same gun with the same loads and a similar wet pack test, but next time with a camera handy to ensure that exact sizes of holes can be represented.

Bailenforcer said:

I used to take a Pumpkin and practice running or walking sideways fast in a 180 degree circle pattern while shooting it.
After a while you will get good enough to shoot while running for cover or getting position on a perp to minimize innocents in the line of fire.

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I have only recently started target shooting in one direction while running in another, something my favorite book Kill Or Get Killed taught against, but in doing more research and striving for better skills, I have come to realize that it is a useful, if difficult skill, but wasn't taught in WWII when the book was written, because it took way too much effort to master.

The problem with practicing it live fire, particularly in this generally flat and heavily populated state, is that it is considerably more dangerous to those in the area than standard stationary fire or firing forward while moving forward. I think it's a good reason to use an airsoft gun for the bulk of this practice, unless you have a big area with a suitable U shaped back stop pretty much to yourself, which is a tall order for most.

If you need such and area I have one at my club!

Well there are hundreds of areas where One can shoot without the danger of rounds leaving a controlled area. Northwest Lower Michigan is nothing but hills with many over 1700 feet MSL and down to 400 feet MSL. The hill by my home is 1839 MSL. The DNR a couple of years ago dug out a pit for shooting 4 miles from my house. Not all of Michigan is flat. Plus much of this area is state forest.

Michigander said:

I have only recently started target shooting in one direction while running in another, something my favorite book Kill Or Get Killed taught against, but in doing more research and striving for better skills, I have come to realize that it is a useful, if difficult skill, but wasn't taught in WWII when the book was written, because it took way too much effort to master.

The problem with practicing it live fire, particularly in this generally flat and heavily populated state, is that it is considerably more dangerous to those in the area than standard stationary fire or firing forward while moving forward. I think it's a good reason to use an airsoft gun for the bulk of this practice, unless you have a big area with a suitable U shaped back stop pretty much to yourself, which is a tall order for most.

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