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Thread: Greens Guide to 18-20 "Carry" of a handgun

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Greens Guide to 18-20 "Carry" of a handgun

    Because I am seeing some VERY QUESTIONABLE information popping up in another certain thread, I will just publish the current form of this guide.





    First off, let me get the crappy disclaimer thing over with. As in the forum rules, regard anything I say as hearsay and not the truth, as I am no lawyer. I will do my best to cite whatever I can but it is up to you to do the final research and to make your own decision. Now let's get started.

    You are 18 to 20 years old and cannot freaking wait to turn 21 so that you may legally carry openly or legally conceal your handgun with the proper CPL (concealed pistol license) at any given time.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050 < Carrying firearms.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.240 < Possessing a pistol (Open carry)


    In the mean time, you can only carry items such as your kung pow fists or pepper spray. Pepper spray is protected by state law (almost like the firearms preemption, although it is not stated that way) for any person age 14 and up. Persons within the age group of 14 to 17 need parental permission to carry the pepper spray while of course, 18 year old adults don't need mommy and daddy to say anything. Or do they?

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.91.160 < Personal Protection Spray Device.
    So maybe you’ve tried it out. You used your super fists, but someone trying to hurt you had bigger fists and hands and lifted you up and choked you out. Or maybe the self defense spray had absolutely no effect on your attacker. Now, you are frustrated as you cannot carry a firearm without being smacked by the law and you aren’t Chuck Norris, and pepper doesn’t scare some people.


    Well, what can we do? Let’s take a look at RCW 9.41.042.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.042


    This RCW states the exception for children under age 18 to possess a firearm. Wait, that doesn’t help us. We’re in the age group of 18-20. Ah, RCW 9.41.060!
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060


    This RCW doesn’t state an age group, but does refer to RCW 9.41.050 which prohibits carrying a concealed firearm without a CPL. It states RCW 9.41.060 will not apply; then down at section 8, for “any person engaging in a lawful outdoor activity”. Well, that’s nice to know and take advantage of, but I am not always engaging in outdoor activities such as camping, fishing, or hiking. Some might consider a walk to the mailbox a hike however….




    Section 9 states, “Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper”. Whoa! So I can take my firearm anywhere that is legal (excluding post officers, schools, jails, etc) as long as it is in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper? It however, must be unloaded. Well that sucks, but it’s better than nothing, right? Well all you have to do now is go down to the local hardware store and pick up a small case, preferably with a combination that you can easily unlock and grab your firearm and magazine in case you really need it. I did that, and all it cost me was 13$. Down at Harborview Freight, they have lockboxes that look like “books” with a title and author and everything! I have fooled many passengers into thinking it was some college book!




    So far, RCW 9.41.060, is the only RCW (that I have found) that will allow you to have your firearm with you (age 18-20), as long as you abide by the conditions.
    But before you run off and dash for a lockbox, don’t forget that you must stand the 4th and pledge the 5th! It is no one’s business what is in your box (unless you are a criminal!) and you don’t have to tell anyone.




    Well, you’re all the way to the bottom, and you know I am about to let go, so here’s one last gem for you.




    Look closely at RCW 0.41.050, look at the very first sentence, “Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.”




    The way that I read that, is that you can carry concealed at your workplace, unless of course it is not “fixed” such as being a delivery driver or bus driver. (Tell me where it says you have to be the OWNER of the business before you argue)

    But what if you don’t like concealing and your boss is ok with open carry? (You are one lucky person if this applies to you). Then RCW 9.41.240 (possession of handgun, not concealed) will apply to you. Number 2 states; “At the person's fixed place of business”.



    How’s that as another extra surprise?


    You can’t carry everywhere, but if you look into what I got listed here, you can always have a handgun on you, (maybe not in the condition you prefer) and you have that extra tool to help save your ass when the time is upon you.






    Anything that you can see is wrong, PM me with details/cites for your argument and I'll correct it.


    Remember, this is alllllllll hearsayyyy , not legal advice!
    Last edited by OrangeIsTrouble; 10-18-2010 at 03:32 PM.


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    thank you Green-Poo ( ) for pointing this out and clarifying...
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    Well, what can we do? Let’s take a look at RCW 9.41.042.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.042

    This RCW states the exception for children under age 18 to possess a firearm. Wait, that doesn’t help us. We’re in the age group of 18-20. Ah, RCW 9.41.060!
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060

    This RCW doesn’t state an age group, but does refer to RCW 9.41.050 which prohibits carrying a concealed firearm without a CPL. It states RCW 9.41.060 will not apply; then down at section 8, for “any person engaging in a lawful outdoor activity”. Well, that’s nice to know and take advantage of, but I am not always engaging in outdoor activities such as camping, fishing, or hiking. Some might consider a walk to the mailbox a hike however….

    Section 9 states, “Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper”. Whoa! So I can take my firearm anywhere that is legal (excluding post officers, schools, jails, etc) as long as it is in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper? It however, must be unloaded. Well that sucks, but it’s better than nothing, right? Well all you have to do now is go down to the local hardware store and pick up a small case, preferably with a combination that you can easily unlock and grab your firearm and magazine in case you really need it. I did that, and all it cost me was 13$. Down at Harborview Freight, they have lockboxes that look like “books” with a title and author and everything! I have fooled many passengers into thinking it was some college book!
    Well lets not stop at lock boxes it says “Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper” does not backpacks or a fanny pack with a lockable portion a secure wrapper?
    While this looks like it is with in the letter of the law if the gun is unloaded.

    I would not consider recommending someone carrying this way as it could be stolen or unknowingly taken away from you and now the firearm is in the hand of a criminal.

    There is a possibility you will be fighting this in court, if found to be carrying this way as well.

    There was nothing wrong in what others have commented on this issue, just because they may not have supported this type of unloaded secured carry, nor do I.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    No, BigDave. Let's stop at lockbox. Did I mention fanny pack, or backpack anywhere? Please don't pull situations out of the air.

    I don't think I need to play nanny and tell everyone to keep their stuff IN CHECK.

    And fighting this in court? How? Do I not have the 4th and 5th also? I am sure if it went to court, the judge would be pretty startled seeing a lockbox that was broken open. Because of course...the officer doesn't know my combination!!!!!! And he doesn't know what is inside, even though he might have a hunch, and hunches don't count for poo poo.


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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Well lets not stop at lock boxes it says “Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper” does not backpacks or a fanny pack with a lockable portion a secure wrapper?
    While this looks like it is with in the letter of the law if the gun is unloaded.

    I would not consider recommending someone carrying this way as it could be stolen or unknowingly taken away from you and now the firearm is in the hand of a criminal.

    There is a possibility you will be fighting this in court, if found to be carrying this way as well.

    There was nothing wrong in what others have commented on this issue, just because they may not have supported this type of unloaded secured carry, nor do I.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    No, BigDave. Let's stop at lockbox. Did I mention fanny pack, or backpack anywhere? Please don't pull situations out of the air.

    I don't think I need to play nanny and tell everyone to keep their stuff IN CHECK.

    And fighting this in court? How? Do I not have the 4th and 5th also? I am sure if it went to court, the judge would be pretty startled seeing a lockbox that was broken open. Because of course...the officer doesn't know my combination!!!!!! And he doesn't know what is inside, even though he might have a hunch, and hunches don't count for poo poo.
    Oh so you want to restrict how it is carried in this manner now, LOL make up your mind.

    Is not a secured fanny pack or backpack a secured wrapper?

    Remember your quoting Section 9 states, “Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper”.


    It seems you are wanting to stretch things why not these two secured items?

    I am sure if one was to dig into the intent of this law, it would like show it was written to transport a firearm to different locations not as a mode of carry.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-18-2010 at 03:42 AM. Reason: remove misplaced [/QUOTE]
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    How am I restricting. In the beginning did I not write;

    "I will do my best to cite whatever I can but it is up to you to do the final research and to make your own decision."

    BigDave must you make things so complicated? Make your own decision. And to the future readers, MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.

    The reason I mentioned lockbox is because it goes along with 1245A Defenders write up. And also because I used a lockbox for a while.

    Come on BigDave threadcrap me some more, do you realize who the AUDIENCE of this write up is aimed at? Gee, let me guess, 18-20 year olds??? Do you see the tone that I wrote this up with? This is not a business proposal, this is for 18-20 year olds who give a rats ass about their life.


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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    How am I restricting. In the beginning did I not write;

    "I will do my best to cite whatever I can but it is up to you to do the final research and to make your own decision."

    BigDave must you make things so complicated? Make your own decision. And to the future readers, MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.

    The reason I mentioned lockbox is because it goes along with 1245A Defenders write up. And also because I used a lockbox for a while.

    Come on BigDave threadcrap me some more, do you realize who the AUDIENCE of this write up is aimed at? Gee, let me guess, 18-20 year olds??? Do you see the tone that I wrote this up with? This is not a business proposal, this is for 18-20 year olds who give a rats ass about their life.
    How do I make things so complicated? By bringing an opposing position and bring thought to the process?
    You have basically copied what other and I have stated previously and called it your own by adding this silliness to it.

    This does not just concern 18-20 yearolds, it has to do with every law abiding citizen.

    The concept of carrying an unloaded firearm in a lockbox or secure wrapper as a mode of carry, is just silly.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    BigDave I apologize for copying all your information. You're totally right, I went in that other thread and copied all of that information and called it mine.

    You're entitled to your own opinion. But as I am the author, I decide who the audience is. That is part of the writing process.

    Hmm......obey the law and keep a self defense tool at home....

    Or obey the law and keep one on you even if it is not in the preferred condition


    But I already knew there would be opposers to this. You know why? Because you can "carry" normally. If you were 18-20, you'd be studying this real hard.

    We can 't. By WE, I mean 18-20s.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    How do I make things so complicated? By bringing an opposing position and bring thought to the process?
    You have basically copied what other and I have stated previously and called it your own by adding this silliness to it.

    This does not just concern 18-20 yearolds, it has to do with every law abiding citizen.

    The concept of carrying an unloaded firearm in a lockbox or secure wrapper as a mode of carry, is just silly.
    well bigdave i kindly asked greenisfaster if he would publish this for people like my (18-20) to read. It is very insightful information and unfortunately at the time, carrying an unloaded weapon in a locked case is the only way for us to exercise our rights. Its not silly and if you think it is...you should help get that law rewritten for people like me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Why does the case or wrapper have to be locked? It says closed case. Closed has a different meaning than locked. And secure wrapper... does secure mean locked?

    Any case law on this?

    For instance, how about a military flap holster? Is this a secure wrapper?

    thats an excellent point navylt. I thing the definition of secure means that, "is someone going to accidently get it"...i dont think anyone would risk it and try though........

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    You're entitled to your own opinion. But as I am the author, I decide who the audience is. That is part of the writing process.
    I imagine you do believe your statement of you deciding who the audience is is laughable, as this is the internet and who ever happens to read it is the audience and you have no choice in it.

    And some say you have no humor, now that is laughable.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Why does the case or wrapper have to be locked? It says closed case. Closed has a different meaning than locked. And secure wrapper... does secure mean locked?

    Any case law on this?

    For instance, how about a military flap holster? Is this a secure wrapper?


    From my original post.


    "preferably with a combination that you can easily unlock and grab your firearm and magazine in case you really need it."

    I never said it HAD TO BE LOCKED. The reason why I suggested lockbox, is so when an officer pulls you over while you are in a vehicle, you can stand your 4th and pledge the 5th if need be.

    If anyone wants to try unloaded in a holster, go ahead, I will stick to my OPAQUE case where the officer cannot clearly see what is inside. He can guess all he wants....



    But then again, in the end....I will probably get raped (and no I do not mean sexually, it's an expression for all the picky people) by the police and the court even if I am legal.


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    Regular Member dizzle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    greenisfaster himself said he carries his gun in a zippered soft case, I am assuming sans lock... I just don't see where a lock is required in the RCWs.
    i dont think a lock is required but as greenisfaster is saying, a cop has to guess and you can plead the 5th and 4th. so it is the safer choice.....?

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    4th Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure.
    5th Amendment, the right to shut up and not incriminate yourself.

    If you play by those rules, you are legal and legit, but it is extra protection.

    However if the officer is already determined to pull a "rip" on you anyway, you're screwed, make sure you got witnesses and verbally set it up. Cover your own ass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    4th Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure.
    5th Amendment, the right to shut up and not incriminate yourself.

    If you play by those rules, you are legal and legit, but it is extra protection.

    However if the officer is already determined to pull a "rip" on you anyway, you're screwed, make sure you got witnesses and verbally set it up. Cover your own ass.
    ah yes. for sure. not all cops are honorable and you best be prepared by having a voice recorder with you at all times you carry as other people on these forums do.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    4th Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure.
    5th Amendment, the right to shut up and not incriminate yourself.

    If you play by those rules, you are legal and legit, but it is extra protection.

    However if the officer is already determined to pull a "rip" on you anyway, you're screwed, make sure you got witnesses and verbally set it up. Cover your own ass.
    Until they get a search warrant, then all bets off.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-12-2010 at 06:54 PM.
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Is a handgun unloaded in a case illegal, BigDave? Given that you are 18, not a felon, not an elephant, not committing or attempting to commit a crime, and not making threats or waving your junk around.


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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    4th Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure.
    5th Amendment, the right to shut up and not incriminate yourself.

    If you play by those rules, you are legal and legit, but it is extra protection.

    However if the officer is already determined to pull a "rip" on you anyway, you're screwed, make sure you got witnesses and verbally set it up. Cover your own ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Until they get a search warrant, then all bets off.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    Is a handgun unloaded in a case illegal, BigDave? Given that you are 18, not a felon, not an elephant, not committing or attempting to commit a crime, and not making threats or waving your junk around.
    If the gun is unloaded and secured as in the RCW there is not issue, unless you come across that officer that wants to make it an issue.
    Presenting a position of "this is now I can carry it legally for self defense" will likely lead into more trouble as demonstrated in Vancouver, WA even though they appeared to be well with in the RCW's.

    It is likely someone will be a test case as in Vancouver and loose the first one right off the bat, was it the one charged actions or his attorney or both that contributed to guiltily verdict be it more in public opinion it is still against the movement for now.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-12-2010 at 07:26 PM.
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Ok buddy. Let me be clear with this.

    Screw legal.

    Screw test cases.

    Obviously you don't put enough value on my life or any other 18-20 year old which is why you are discouraging this.

    Let me tell you something. Whether you like it or not, I will do as I do, and I will keep myself out of trouble as I do. I will not take your advice so stop giving it. If you keep on giving it, you are an attention *****.


    When you are man enough to understand things such as the value of life versus court cases and money, let me know, maybe we can be friends.




    btw, the officer that "makes it an issue" is just doing that, making a perfectly legal act an issue.
    Last edited by OrangeIsTrouble; 10-12-2010 at 07:32 PM.


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  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    Ok buddy. Let me be clear with this.

    Screw legal.
    Screw test cases.
    Obviously you don't put enough value on my life or any other 18-20 year old which is why you are discouraging this.
    Let me tell you something. Whether you like it or not, I will do as I do, and I will keep myself out of trouble as I do. I will not take your advice so stop giving it. If you keep on giving it, you are an attention *****.
    When you are man enough to understand things such as the value of life versus court cases and money, let me know, maybe we can be friends.
    btw, the officer that "makes it an issue" is just doing that, making a perfectly legal act an issue.
    With time, knowledge and experience comes understanding and screw the law and test case issues is not showing a maturity level to get a full grasp on the issues at hand.
    There are many other tools legal for the 18 to 120 year old out there that are effective tools for self defense the the best of of all is our mind and to take steps to avoid these issues as well there will be there times we have no control over.

    You are on the right track but get hung up on this alternate way to carry, just make sure you do not loose this right before you can fully enjoy it.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Why does the case or wrapper have to be locked? It says closed case. Closed has a different meaning than locked. And secure wrapper... does secure mean locked?

    Any case law on this?

    For instance, how about a military flap holster? Is this a secure wrapper?

    There may be an issue of carrying unloaded in a holster but no doubt in my mind there will be challenges in different jurisdictions.

    Who wants to step up to the plate and take a swing? Anyone? How about our 18-20 advocates, I know it could end up being stressful and may incur an expense and at worse be found guilty do to an interpenetration of what is a secure wrapper.

    I'll put $5.00 on it is, anyone else?
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-12-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member dizzle2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    With time, knowledge and experience comes understanding and screw the law and test case issues is not showing a maturity level to get a full grasp on the issues at hand.
    There are many other tools legal for the 18 to 120 year old out there that are effective tools for self defense the the best of of all is our mind and to take steps to avoid these issues as well there will be there times we have no control over.

    You are on the right track but get hung up on this alternate way to carry, just make sure you do not loose this right before you can fully enjoy it.
    why dont you put down your gun because, "there are other effective tools for self defense like our minds". haha, what a load. come on listen to yourself sir. It is you that speaks of gun advocacy all over on these forums...now your talking alternatives to carrying a gun???

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Remember...

    State v. Seiyes...

    The WA Supreme Court is very open to those under 21 having the right to bear arms. Read the decision, basically, if the appelant would of made the argument those under 21 might be able to carry. Pay particular note to footnote 22 below.

    Tellingly Sieyes fails to provide convincing authority supporting an orginal
    meaning of the Second Amendment, which would grant all children an unfettered right
    to bear arms. In fact during oral argument Sieyes’s counsel conceded the opposite.
    Furthermore Sieyes makes no adequate argument specific to the facts of this case that
    a 17-year-old’s Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms has been violated by

    this statute.
    21 Similarly Sieyes mentions the statute restricting children from
    possessing firearms violates his right to bear arms under article I, section 24,
    but cites no authority and makes no argument for this proposition.

    22 Sieyes’s objection may be that he was 17 years old at the time of his arrest, and his right to bear arms should be equal to that of an 18-year-old’s, but his arguments fail to challenge the statutory age limit set by this statute. In sum appellant offers no convincing authority supporting his argument that Washington’s limit on childhood firearm possession violates the United States or Washington Constitutions. Accordingly we keep our powder dry on this issue for another day.23
    22
    Appellant could have made this argument by analyzing the issue under Gunwall. For example he might have provided evidence of a historical tradition in Washington of 17-year-olds possessing or using firearms for defense of themselves or the state, or of background legal principles to that effect.

    Last edited by gogodawgs; 10-12-2010 at 08:39 PM.
    Live Free or Die!

  25. #25
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzle2 View Post
    why dont you put down your gun because, "there are other effective tools for self defense like our minds". haha, what a load. come on listen to yourself sir. It is you that speaks of gun advocacy all over on these forums...now your talking alternatives to carrying a gun???
    It is legal for me to carry open or concealed with out an issue, you not so much.
    Keep working on it, maybe by the time your are may age it will change.

    Is it in your mind it is all or nothing? We all have or had to work around issues all our lives in a legal manner, you are just starting out, work it out.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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