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Thread: Woman kills serial rapist with 12 guage shotgun.

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    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Woman kills serial rapist with 12 guage shotgun.

    this may have been posted in the past but i just love this story.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Looks like a repeat offender taken off the streets.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Good ending to a bad event.

    Hope the lady can get on with her life w/o complications.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COMMANDER1911 View Post
    this may have been posted in the past but i just love this story.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg
    Good for her! She should have used a heavier load of 00 buckshot and he would not have even made it alive to the hospital! Bob.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobF View Post
    Good for her! She should have used a heavier load of 00 buckshot and he would not have even made it alive to the hospital! Bob.
    Not the way I would have said it.

    Point is to stop the threat, not to see anyone, no matter how despicable, lose their life. We are neither jury nor judge and should not be dancing on anyone's grave - it's not in accord with who and what we are.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not the way I would have said it.

    Point is to stop the threat, not to see anyone, no matter how despicable, lose their life. We are neither jury nor judge and should not be dancing on anyone's grave - it's not in accord with who and what we are.
    Ever the voice of reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not the way I would have said it.

    Point is to stop the threat, not to see anyone, no matter how despicable, lose their life. We are neither jury nor judge and should not be dancing on anyone's grave - it's not in accord with who and what we are.
    I disagree.
    I guess it depends on your definition of 'stopping the threat'. If the time comes and you pull the trigger, you will, I assume, aiming for the center of mass, correct? Alot of vital organs there. Why not a arm or leg if you are 'stopping a threat'? Plus, again I assume, you are using a good size caliber of gun? Why not a .22 instead of a .45? If I am using my gun against a threat I am going to make sure my threat is stopped and not decide if I should wound or kill.
    I have been shot at before. If I would have been armed, he would have been dead.

    What do you mean 'it's not in accord with who and what we are'? Whose 'we'?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not the way I would have said it.

    Point is to stop the threat, not to see anyone, no matter how despicable, lose their life. We are neither jury nor judge and should not be dancing on anyone's grave - it's not in accord with who and what we are.
    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    I disagree.
    I guess it depends on your definition of 'stopping the threat'. If the time comes and you pull the trigger, you will, I assume, aiming for the center of mass, correct? Alot of vital organs there. Why not a arm or leg if you are 'stopping a threat'? Plus, again I assume, you are using a good size caliber of gun? Why not a .22 instead of a .45? If I am using my gun against a threat I am going to make sure my threat is stopped and not decide if I should wound or kill.
    I have been shot at before. If I would have been armed, he would have been dead.

    What do you mean 'it's not in accord with who and what we are'? Whose 'we'?
    Pull up a chair if you care to listen and learn, rather than be contentious.

    First the "we" rather than the "I." Having the benefit of long association with OCDO and an active part of VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/), not as the voice of either but rather as a knowledgeable voice of both - "we" is the result of those collective positions.

    It is both a moral and ethical posture with legal ramifications (embraced by both organizations) that the purpose of self-defense is to protect and to do so with the least amount of justifiable harm to others. The intent, desire or purpose is not to cause harm but to prevent harm and NO the are not the same. Stopping a threat and intending to end life are two very different starting points - on that we are unwavering.

    The fallacy, straw argument, of the center of mass vs leg/arm points and .22 vs .45 contentions are extremely basic by replying that one is more effective/practical in stopping the aggressive/threatening behavior of another, not which one causes more harm.

    I find it rather unfortunate that you would attest to being willing to unnecessarily end the life of another, especially after the fact.

    We advocate walking, running or driving away whenever and wherever possible - avoidance - deterrence and then only as a last resort stopping the imminent threat.

    So disagree if you want, but consider the advice given. It may well be worth much more than you paid for it.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-16-2010 at 05:11 PM. Reason: correction
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Its also the potential difference in a justified homicide and murder; the latter of, which there are usually lengthy prison sentences for.

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    and there was no intended pun in the previous post.

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    If someone is coming at me with a knife and I pull my gun and aim it at him ,If he doesnt stop, I will pull the trigger. If I kill him so be it. If I wound him, so be it. I would not stand over him and pump another round in him to finish him off. I was protecting my life. I do not care about his because he was not going to care about mine. I would render care to him after his weapon and my surrondings were clear. That is my job as a medic. Remember dead men tell no tales. lol, that is a joke.

    Like I said, I have been shot at before. If I would have been armed he would have been dead. Even tho none of his 10 rounds hit me or my friends.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    snip........ Remember dead men tell no tales. lol, that is a joke.

    Like I said, I have been shot at before. If I would have been armed he would have been dead. Even tho none of his 10 rounds hit me or my friends.
    Not only do dead men tell tales - think autopsy reports, DNA and other crime scene evidence; but so do one's postings on a public forum - and that, sir, is no joke.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not only do dead men tell tales - think autopsy reports, DNA and other crime scene evidence; but so do one's postings on a public forum - and that, sir, is no joke.
    I was throwing a little humor into it. Its a biker saying. Jeez.

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    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    I hate this had to occur. I am glad she was armed. I am sorry she has the emotional scars which will occur from taking a life, even if the life was from scum such as this.

    I am truly glad the right for her to protect herself still exists. Sad she had been attacked the first time, and that was not prevented...

    Truly sadly - I bet his relatives sue or have sued her...
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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Here we go again, the old argument of how much force is enough to "stop" a threat. Of course in a perfect world it would be "oh I just shot him in the leg". A alleged serial rapist in the act of attempting to commit yet another, would of course a major consternation to the victim. As someone else stated, a good dose of doublenaught Buck would be just enough to "stop" the threat.
    As General George S. Patton said " There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
    Survival is a deadly business, to use any lesser force than required to neutralize the target is senseless. My ole Gramps said it best when he first taught me to shoot. "Never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to kill" If I point a weapon at a would be BG he's goin' down for the count.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Here we go again, the old argument of how much force is enough to "stop" a threat. Of course in a perfect world it would be "oh I just shot him in the leg". A alleged serial rapist in the act of attempting to commit yet another, would of course a major consternation to the victim. As someone else stated, a good dose of doublenaught Buck would be just enough to "stop" the threat.
    As General George S. Patton said " There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
    Survival is a deadly business, to use any lesser force than required to neutralize the target is senseless. My ole Gramps said it best when he first taught me to shoot. "Never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to kill" If I point a weapon at a would be BG he's goin' down for the count.
    +1

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    Oh, you always shoot center mass. That is the shot most likely to stop an attacker. Unfortunately, it is also the shot most likely to kill him. But, killing is not the goal. Stopping is.

    We need need to keep chanting this mantra. It must be ingrained in our psyche. It must rule our actions in a self-defense setting. It must be our undoubted motivation when our actions are examined after a self-defense shooting.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Oh, you always shoot center mass. That is the shot most likely to stop an attacker. Unfortunately, it is also the shot most likely to kill him. But, killing is not the goal. Stopping is.

    We need need to keep chanting this mantra. It must be ingrained in our psyche. It must rule our actions in a self-defense setting. It must be our undoubted motivation when our actions are examined after a self-defense shooting.
    A distinction that IMHO is not well enough understood nor fully enough embraced by a few. The fine line between over-reacting, revenge and self-defense may be breached by a few careless utterances.

    We buy reliable equipment, read and study, train and practice, - then open our maws and offer up the family farm to pay for poorly chosen words.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-18-2010 at 09:52 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    The goal is to stop the threat. I was trained to use three shots to do so, a double-tap to the center body mass, and a third to the head, if possible. After that, reevaluate the threat and repeat as necessary until the threat has been stopped. I use the same caliber and type of firearm on which I was trained in the military.

    Let's not mince words, here. Some might call that excessive. I call it an effective means of stopping the threat.

    Let us never forget that an armed criminal who retains both a weapon and and even slight consciousness remains a deadly threat. The only thing shooting him in the leg will accomplish is to royally tick him off.

    I'm sorry the woman had to go through this, but I'm very glad she borrowed a friend's shotgun, knew how to use it, and used it properly when the need arose.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    The goal is to stop the threat. I was trained to use three shots to do so, a double-tap to the center body mass, and a third to the head, if possible. After that, reevaluate the threat and repeat as necessary until the threat has been stopped. I use the same caliber and type of firearm on which I was trained in the military.

    Let's not mince words, here. Some might call that excessive. I call it an effective means of stopping the threat.
    I assume you would not shoot an attacker after he surrendered, or after he turned to run, or after he was already disarmed/down/dead. Once the threat is no longer an active threat you stop shooting. THAT is the key.

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    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not the way I would have said it.

    Point is to stop the threat, not to see anyone, no matter how despicable, lose their life. We are neither jury nor judge and should not be dancing on anyone's grave - it's not in accord with who and what we are.
    Hi Mate.
    No disrespect meant to you and your opion. I do agree with the point made which is to immediately stop any threat to one's self.
    Unfortunatly any woman facing a rapist does not know if she is the rapist's first victim? So what should she do? Should she just wound him only where possible and pray he will never rape again, especially as some rapists have been know to return and rape the same victim again, or should she kill him where possible?

    Let me think, if I was a woman on my own, prepared to defend myself against possible rape, would I have my shotgun loaded with buck-shot, or 00's? Personally, I would probably be using solid 12 guage slugs!, if it was legal, down under. Sadly, in the land down under, self defence has been declared illegal, and many rapists continue to rape after rape and then rape again.

    Ocassionally one is caught and they usually get a slap on the wrist and are released in a few weeks only to continue on their merry raping ways.

    Its obvious to me personally, leathel force, (illegal down under), is often the only way to make a final end to it all. Regards, Haz.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Oh, you always shoot center mass. That is the shot most likely to stop an attacker. Unfortunately, it is also the shot most likely to kill him. But, killing is not the goal. Stopping is.

    We need need to keep chanting this mantra. It must be ingrained in our psyche. It must rule our actions in a self-defense setting. It must be our undoubted motivation when our actions are examined after a self-defense shooting.
    You can SAY that all you want, and it's your story so stick to it. I still say the guaranteed way to STOP the threat is take it out, permanently. No judge, or jury can determine how scared I was. "Your Honor I did not intend to empty the full 13 round magazine into the sumbitch, but he kept trying to get up"
    As for me, it's a guarantee, I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by six.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

  23. #23
    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    The goal is to stop the threat. I was trained to use three shots to do so, a double-tap to the center body mass, and a third to the head, if possible. After that, reevaluate the threat and repeat as necessary until the threat has been stopped. I use the same caliber and type of firearm on which I was trained in the military.
    It's called a Mog drill Since9. It was used by our Rangers in Mogadishu sp? after they had the M1911's taken from them. Only sure way to stop a "skinny"
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    It's called a Mog drill Since9. It was used by our Rangers in Mogadishu sp? after they had the M1911's taken from them. Only sure way to stop a "skinny"
    Hate to get all in a tizzy, but the Mozambique Drill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill came to us via Jeff Cooper who learned of it from one of his students. It's also taught to cops for those cases when they encounter BGs wearing armor.

    There are lots of ways to stop a BG/VCA (Violent Criminal Actor), just as there are lots of different opinions on how the stopping should be accomplished. What we were presented with in the OP was one of those ways. Let us hope and pray that there are no legal or psychological repercussions for the woman who defended her life.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Hate to get all in a tizzy, but the Mozambique Drill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill came to us via Jeff Cooper who learned of it from one of his students. It's also taught to cops for those cases when they encounter BGs wearing armor.

    There are lots of ways to stop a BG/VCA (Violent Criminal Actor), just as there are lots of different opinions on how the stopping should be accomplished. What we were presented with in the OP was one of those ways. Let us hope and pray that there are no legal or psychological repercussions for the woman who defended her life.

    stay safe.
    +1

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