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Thread: OC Case Law References relating to Reasonable Articulate Suspicion

  1. #1
    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    OC Case Law References relating to Reasonable Articulate Suspicion

    I posted this on the legal section, but I thought posting to KS forum would also help:

    Does anyone have any Open Carry case references or case law relating to OC and Reasonable Articulate Suspicion? I am specifically interested in Kansas examples, but any Federal cases would also be interesting.

    Issue:
    I have and will open carrying in Wichita, Kansas and I have a debate with my law enforcement contact on whether or not LEOs have the right to perform a Terry Stop and demand ID on OC citizens with just suspicion that their firearm may be loaded. OC is legal in Kansas, but UNLOADED OC is only legal in Wichita due to local ordinances, which appear to be unconstitutional.

    I was told that city attorney recently had a training session for WPD and mentioned that RAS was needed for officers to stop OC citizens. Since, LOADED open carry is illegal, officers who see OC citizens carry firearms would have the right to stop, question, check ID and check the firearm to see if it is unloaded only. Once the check has occurred, the LEO would not have RAS to further detain/check on citizen. Her position was that it is reasonable to assume that the firearm is loaded and this would be committing a crime.
    This point of view did not make sense to me, because if KS LEOs have to check to see if I am unloaded, then they don’t know or should not suspect that I am loaded and breaking the ordinance. Of course, this changes if they get a call from a citizen who reports that someone was loading pistol, brandishing it, etc… Wichita does not have ordinances, like in California, which allow LEOs to specifically check for unloaded status.

    My point of view is that OC is legal, and unless WPD have RAS, they should not have the ability to stop me, even if it is to check to see that my weapon is unloaded.

    This is an important issue, because I believe WPD will potentially be violating citizens’ 4th Amendment rights by hassling them for ID and detaining them for OC...

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    Welcome to the new Police Sate that is Amerika!!!! Where the citizens are guilty until the spend lots of $$$ in court to prove themselves innocent. Rights mean nothing, and the Government knows what's best for you...
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    For unloaded open carry you'd have a better chance if you didn't have a magazine in your weapon. Beyond that, the officer would have to have really good eyes to see if the chamber is loaded. There is no fourth amendment exception for guns. An unlawful stop would be just that and anything else fruit of a poisonous tree.

    If you choose to follow the law to the letter to the best of your abilities keep a voice recorder going.

    If an officer encounters you, first establish if you are free to go. This may take a few volleys of "Am I free to go?" before you get a definite answer from the officer. If not, don't say anything further except you do not consent to a search and you will answer questions only in the presence of your lawyer (you do have a lawyer's number in your cell phone, right?).

    If you are free to go then tell the officer you do not want to continue the conversation and walk away.

    Your rights are dependent on how you assert them and how the officer respects them. If the encounter goes south then you have it recorded and you may choose to pursue litigation. Perhaps you won't have an encounter or perhaps the officer will give you a thumbs up for exercising your rights.

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback...I was going to get one of those pen cameras...I have seen sample video on youtube and they seen to work pretty well if you get a high res version... Empty magazine suggestion is a good idea, but whether I have an empty one seated or not, LEO should not be able to "search" for loaded status unless they have RAS...

  5. #5
    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Link to cases

    see below a link to a few pretty good cases relating to OC...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...late-Suspicion

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