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Thread: Marines save life of stabbed officer who was struggling to keep his firearm

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Marines save life of stabbed officer who was struggling to keep his firearm

    http://www.marines.mil/unit/1stmardi...undaries;.aspx

    Many who read my posts know how I feel about people who open carry and don't get training. Here is a fantastic story outlining a gun grab from an officer.

    For those who TL;DR:
    Officer gets stabbed in ear, fights with suspect trying to fight for the officer's firearm.

    I do believe people are stupid/morons/incompetent fools for using crappy 60 dollar holsters and don't go for training for retention of firearms, shame on you.

    Yeah so basically, those who are more at risk to a gun grab(holstered or drawn), open carry, don't have training, uses a POS blackhawk 60USD holster, will most likely be the ones we see in the obituaries.

    Have a nice day,
    Insane Kangaroo

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    Actually, this story does not illustrate your point. I have not doubt that the officer had retention training and a retention holster.

    Training and proper equipment are important. I just don't think we should stand in judgment of each other based on level of training and how much we spend on equipment.

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Yeah so basically, those who are more at risk to a gun grab(holstered or drawn), open carry, don't have training, uses a POS blackhawk 60USD holster, will most likely be the ones we see in the obituaries.
    So me carrying my firearm in a blackhawk holster is going to get me killed?

    What holster, almighty kangaroo, should i use then if i don't have training? for apparently you are the master and I am the apprentice....
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I consider "training" to be a word on par with "tactical". It is a word used to stir up a specific emotion to inspire a specific mental image and response which are thought by many in the gun business as keys to the consumers wallets. Both are terms I tend to use once a month or less, because I generally consider them more nonsense than applicable to much of anything. Instead, I prefer the term "practice" in place of "training", and a general description of a product, service, or action in place of the word "tactical".

    One of my very favorite armed and unarmed fighting instructors has never that I have heard used the term "training" and always says "practice". He also endorses the idea that many people who have the desire to do so can and often will research things on their own, and figure out what they are doing quite well with little if any formal instruction. With guns, I think this is particularly doable for those with at least a few years of martial arts experience, but even then, it isn't really needed.

    All of that said, I will agree that a lot of people in the OC community don't spend nearly enough time figuring out what they are doing for laws, counter police abuse strategies, or shooting skill. The worst part is that we're probably way ahead of most CCers.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-13-2010 at 11:54 PM.
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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Actually, this story does not illustrate your point. I have not doubt that the officer had retention training and a retention holster.

    Training and proper equipment are important. I just don't think we should stand in judgment of each other based on level of training and how much we spend on equipment.
    The story outlines the criminal was trying to grab the gun away from the officer in order to shoot him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    I consider "training" to be a word on par with "tactical". It is a word used to stir up a specific emotion to inspire a specific mental image and response which are thought by many in the gun business as keys to the consumers wallets. Both are terms I tend to use once a month or less, because I generally consider them more nonsense than applicable to much of anything. Instead, I prefer the term "practice" in place of "training", and a general description of a product, service, or action in place of the word "tactical".
    Formal training and practice, two separate activities, are equally important and both required to properly know how to defend oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    One of my very favorite armed and unarmed fighting instructors has never that I have heard used the term "training" and always says "practice". He also endorses the idea that many people who have the desire to do so can and often will research things on their own, and figure out what they are doing quite well with little if any formal instruction. With guns, I think this is particularly doable for those with at least a few years of martial arts experience, but even then, it isn't really needed.

    All of that said, I will agree that a lot of people in the OC community don't spend nearly enough time figuring out what they are doing for laws, counter police abuse strategies, or shooting skill. The worst part is that we're probably way ahead of most CCers.
    There are tactics which are learned in formal training classes, while it doesn't teach everything such courses enable an individual to think in a certain way.

    I agree on the CCer part, every time I see a story about a gun drop the thought, "He wouldn't have dropped the gun if it were in a proper retention holster," goes through my mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    So me carrying my firearm in a blackhawk holster is going to get me killed?

    What holster, almighty kangaroo, should i use then if i don't have training? for apparently you are the master and I am the apprentice....
    Only if the blackhawk holster is a cheap level II where someone could just get a cheap shot and take the gun while you're trying to recover.

    Personally, I only use level IV and level V holsters, like the Safariland 6070.

    I should note, many police departments will have their officers wear body armor which is capable of stopping their own handgun round.

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    Kangaroo, I partially agree with your posts. Before I bought my first pistol, I took a basic firearms safety class at my local gun range, taught by a LEO. We had about 3 1/2 hours of classroom instruction and about 45 minutes on the range. I had never fired a pistol before, but I loved it. Still love to target shoot. The summer of 09 I took private training with a firearms intructor for about 10 weeks, once a week. We worked on accuracy of course, but also on using cover, shooting from different posititons, point shooting, shooting and reloading while wounded, etc. All valuable information I hope I never have to use, but I'm glad I have it. A group of us on the Washington forum will be getting together soon to learn weapon retention, using dummy guns (blues & greens). My reasoning for taking training is that if I am going to carry around a lethal weapon that I could kill someone with, I want to know everything I can regarding it so I can be safe for myself as well as others. I don't believe training or instruction should be mandatory, but who wouldn't want to train when you are brand new to something?!?

    I agree with you that formal training does teach "mind set" something you cannot learn on your own, or only on you own. It always helps to learn from someone more experienced than you, be that in a formal or informal way. The same can be said of martial arts. If you do something incorrect in front of an instructor you can be shown and practice the correct way immediately.

    I don't think you have to spend a ton of money for good equipment. The same holds true here as it does elsewhere-you get what you pay for more or less-but don't pay outrageous amounts of money for a name. Sometimes something less expensive will serve the purpose just fine. We all have varying amounts of disposable income, especially in this economy. I am thankful that I was able to get my guns and related equipment last year when my personal economy was better. Learn to discern quality, regardless of price. Don't spend money on something just to look good, it has to work for YOU.
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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that the struggle for the firearm had little to do with any training or holster utilized but rather the fact that the man was stabbed in the face.

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    Regular Member RockerFor2A's Avatar
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    Wow. Had no idea until now that the Backhawk Serpa holster I recently bought for my XD40 was crap.

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Only if the blackhawk holster is a cheap level II where someone could just get a cheap shot and take the gun while you're trying to recover.
    Even with a lvl 4 or 5 retention holster, if you get caught off gaurd and take a cheap shot, they still have a chance at getting your pistol, training or not. Sure its a smaller chance that they'll succeed the more retention you have, but if you let someone get close enough to get a cheap shot off on you, then you weren't paying enough attention and didn't maintain SA.

    Personally, I'll keep my "POS blackhawk" holster, because a) that's all I can afford, b) I am *confident* that I can suppress someone from taking my firearm if I were to receive a cheap shot, and c) because I don't want to have to break into fort knox just to draw my pistol in self defense (more retention usually equals more time to draw)

    You also have to consider that a good portion of the population don't know what retention holsters are, and are only used to a thumb break. A few of the people I know don't know how to get my pistol out of the holster until I show them how, and it was even awkward for me at first.

    Yes, I understand that the more retention you have, the harder it is to draw; but the harder it is to draw, the longer it takes to draw in self defense. Like I said - I don't want to have to break into fort Knox just to protect myself. The more steps to do something, the more likely that process is to fail under a high-strain environment; I don't want to take that chance.

    But thats just me
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    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    IMHO the OP has nothing to do with cheap holsters or inadequate training. Knowing from personal experience, even the smallest departments ensure every officer goes through extensive retention training. No retention holster will stop a drug addict on PCP from taking your firearm if you dont have the situational awareness. They feel no pain. Training is the key. And it is a bit pretentious to assume everyone with a lsser holster than a level IV or V is going to end up in a body bag.
    Last edited by COMMANDER1911; 10-14-2010 at 09:53 AM.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Training and proper equipment are important. I just don't think we should stand in judgment of each other based on level of training and how much we spend on equipment.
    I agree eye95, the level of training and equipment are, indeed a personal choice, and we would do well to respect the personal decisions of others. Part of that is the personal freedom thing.

    I also believe the one size fits all solution should not apply to bearing arms. IMHO retention holsters are a good thing when you are in a crowd and the risk of somebody grabbing your handgun is high. Are they the best when your life depends on how quick you clear leather? Not so sure.
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    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    We'll start off with the fact that you are turning this story into something you want it to be.

    1. It doesn't say the assailant reached for the officer's gun while it was holstered, it could have quite easily already been drawn

    2. It doesn't say what holster he was using. It could have been a level 1,000. We don't know.

    3. Most departments require at least a lvl 2 retention, and I know of some that require a lvl 3, and they all get retention training.



    Even if we were to forget all of the above facts, how is a Black hawk holster cheap? Go try to pull a firearm out of one. It's not going to budge without doing the right things.

    Last, I'm sorry to bring myself down to such a childish level, but I feel it must be said, you're an idiot.
    Last edited by Big Boy; 10-14-2010 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Actually, this story does not illustrate your point. I have not doubt that the officer had retention training and a retention holster.

    Training and proper equipment are important. I just don't think we should stand in judgment of each other based on level of training and how much we spend on equipment.
    Quote Originally Posted by insane.kangaroo View Post
    The story outlines the criminal was trying to grab the gun away from the officer in order to shoot him.
    The point of your post was clearly to lament lack of training and the use of cheap, non-retention holsters.

    Again, the story you cite does not illustrate this. Likely the officer had training and an expensive retention holster.

    I made my point. Moving on.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the struggle for the firearm had little to do with any training or holster utilized but rather the fact that the man was stabbed in the face.
    That's what stuck out at me too. I don't care what kind of training you've had, getting STABBED IN THE FACE would take anyone out of step. Like it had also been mentioned, retention level is a moot point if you're knocked out from behind. A high alertness level is the most important part of the equation. Learning how to fight off and retain your weapon would be secondary. Using an Uncle Mike's $20 holster from Wal-Mart is sufficient, no need to be a snob about what someone can afford to use.

    And a big OORAHH!!! To those Marines!
    Last edited by PrayingForWar; 10-14-2010 at 03:37 PM.
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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    I don't think an individual who OC's needs the same level of retention as a LEO. His exposure to a possible gun grab is exponentially higher than mine.

    My budget doesn't allow me to buy Safariland retention holsters. It's a cost benefit and risk versus reward kind of thing.

    I think I'll stick with my crappy POS Serpa.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    I carry my pistol in s Serpa Level II. I'm not gonna wrestle with the thing to draw the weapon. My counter to a knife is another knife but I'm not in the arrest business, so I'm not all that concerened 'bout somebody goin' for my gun. I carry cross-draw anyway. Good luck gettin' that pistol. Cops are in a different situation. If somebody pulls a knife on me I'm going to shoot them. If somebody wants to 'dance' I'm gonna shoot them.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by insane.kangaroo View Post
    Formal training and practice, two separate activities, are equally important and both required to properly know how to defend oneself.



    There are tactics which are learned in formal training classes, while it doesn't teach everything such courses enable an individual to think in a certain way..
    A vietnam veteran and current competitive shooter I know from another forum puts it a very good way. Researching and implementing practice techniques, talking to and practicing with knowledgeable people IS training. You can even try to generate an elevated heart rate with sprinting a few hundred yards then trying to shoot very accurate shots, or go so far as to generate a high stress enivronment through the use of airsoft guns and protective gear where the person with the pads tries to pretty much beat down the defender with boxing gloved hands, having a spotter and safety person call it off when the assailant should have been shot well enough. The assailant can also use a dud knife. NONE of this requires a lot of equipment or any other special reason to spend any large sums of money. Even just screaming confusing commands at the shooter with pre-rigged jams to be cleared can go a long way.

    I've been in a a fair number of life threatening situations, about half from my high school years, and half from my interactions with police as a general result of open carrying in an us against them cop infested area. I suppose I learned how to handle high stress environments from having fight or flight stress in real life all too many times, as well as having done some very aggressive sparring in martial arts. But I'm still not convinced that there is any need to seek out someone to pay to take away your fighting jitters. I suppose it might be a faster way to go, and perhaps the only way to go if you don't have anyone to practice with, but I have yet to hear of a technique that can't be practiced among friends for free, or at most just the cost of equipment.

    In my opinion, the vast majority of "formal gun training" is an utter waste of money. There is an unrealistic and unnatural idea that you should use 2 hands and focus on the front sight when defending yourself against an up close attacker, and the majority programs I have seen are all about this. Teaching hip firing to 6 feet, and one handed point shooting to 15, with sight picture shooting past that works too well and is far too easy natural and sensible for "instructors" to make lots of money on, which is in my opinion why so few people in the gun business preach it. It is a shame, because it could save lives.

    But again, about the CC issue, I know several CPL teachers well, and they encounter few people who are legitimately good shots, or have any desire to be. I think most gun instruction is either a going through the motions NRA ******** course, or a Jeff Cooper style ******** course. In my opinion, viewing either as serious is usually a mistake.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-14-2010 at 08:38 PM.
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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    In my opinion, the vast majority of "formal gun training" is an utter waste of money. There is an unrealistic and unnatural idea that you should use 2 hands and focus on the front sight when defending yourself against an up close attacker, and the majority programs I have seen are all about this. Teaching hip firing to 6 feet, and one handed point shooting to 15, with sight picture shooting past that works too well and is far too easy natural and sensible for "instructors" to make lots of money on, which is in my opinion why so few people in the gun business preach it. It is a shame, because it could save lives.
    Sounds like awful courses, thankfully I've only been taught by multiple instructors in the same course. Different actions, reactions, and what to expect were taught, also non-standard methods of shooting. If there are instructors teaching target shooting as tactical, shame on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    I don't think an individual who OC's needs the same level of retention as a LEO. His exposure to a possible gun grab is exponentially higher than mine.

    My budget doesn't allow me to buy Safariland retention holsters. It's a cost benefit and risk versus reward kind of thing.

    I think I'll stick with my crappy POS Serpa.
    An individual who isn't in a security field should have better equipment and attempt to gain the same awareness. The uneducated open carrier is exactly like a 17 year old on a learning permit, acting all bad ass thinking he can drive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the struggle for the firearm had little to do with any training or holster utilized but rather the fact that the man was stabbed in the face.
    You think criminals are going to play fair when they go for your gun?
    Last edited by david.ross; 10-14-2010 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    A vietnam veteran and current competitive shooter I know from another forum puts it a very good way. Researching and implementing practice techniques, talking to and practicing with knowledgeable people IS training. You can even try to generate an elevated heart rate with sprinting a few hundred yards then trying to shoot very accurate shots, or go so far as to generate a high stress enivronment through the use of airsoft guns and protective gear where the person with the pads tries to pretty much beat down the defender with boxing gloved hands, having a spotter and safety person call it off when the assailant should have been shot well enough. The assailant can also use a dud knife. NONE of this requires a lot of equipment or any other special reason to spend any large sums of money. Even just screaming confusing commands at the shooter with pre-rigged jams to be cleared can go a long way.

    I've been in a a fair number of life threatening situations, about half from my high school years, and half from my interactions with police as a general result of open carrying in an us against them cop infested area. I suppose I learned how to handle high stress environments from having fight or flight stress in real life all too many times, as well as having done some very aggressive sparring in martial arts. But I'm still not convinced that there is any need to seek out someone to pay to take away your fighting jitters. I suppose it might be a faster way to go, and perhaps the only way to go if you don't have anyone to practice with, but I have yet to hear of a technique that can't be practiced among friends for free, or at most just the cost of equipment.

    In my opinion, the vast majority of "formal gun training" is an utter waste of money. There is an unrealistic and unnatural idea that you should use 2 hands and focus on the front sight when defending yourself against an up close attacker, and the majority programs I have seen are all about this. Teaching hip firing to 6 feet, and one handed point shooting to 15, with sight picture shooting past that works too well and is far too easy natural and sensible for "instructors" to make lots of money on, which is in my opinion why so few people in the gun business preach it. It is a shame, because it could save lives.

    But again, about the CC issue, I know several CPL teachers well, and they encounter few people who are legitimately good shots, or have any desire to be. I think most gun instruction is either a going through the motions NRA ******** course, or a Jeff Cooper style ******** course. In my opinion, viewing either as serious is usually a mistake.
    Aye, not everyone must pay money to reach enlightenment or have a mindset other than that of a sheep.

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    A cop is supposed to get right up on criminals, make arrests,etc. An OCer has no obligation to do any of that. Criminals hate cops, and a crazy one WILL target a lone cop, or even 4 of them sitting in a coffeehouse. Criminals probably get a brain freeze when they see an OCer, which makes many of them think WTF and then either leave or cease pursuing anything criminal they were planning just before.

    I liked you Insane Roo, not so sure I am liking you so much with the negative posts. Have to ask though- can you find an example of an OCer who had a criminal attempt a gun grab? You going all CCer on us or something, joining the "element of surprise" crowd? What's up? OK LOL I can see a level 254644 holster if you are wearing the full fursuit and wanting to OC...

    Oh and nobody gets that close to me when I OC. I am super paranoid and can erupt sharp canine teeth in my mouth and my yellow eyes glow, and my growl is a good throaty one. hee hee hee

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    and my yellow eyes glow
    Sounds like jaundice, should get that checked out.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    A cop is supposed to get right up on criminals, make arrests,etc. An OCer has no obligation to do any of that. Criminals hate cops, and a crazy one WILL target a lone cop, or even 4 of them sitting in a coffeehouse. Criminals probably get a brain freeze when they see an OCer, which makes many of them think WTF and then either leave or cease pursuing anything criminal they were planning just before.
    When people see an OCer, they typically do not think ,"Oh hey look a citizen." Through all my interactions with the public, there's more people who ask if I'm a cop or a <insert government profession here>. I'm probably one of the individuals who do socialize on a larger scale with the general public, passersby, etc, I've one of those faces apparently which say "Oh Hai der!"

    Do I have to reiterate my experiences in Pittsburgh? Even when I don't wear fatigues or any tactical related clothing of sorts, I get "****ING COP!", "PIG!", "OINK OINK", "WANT A DOUGHNUT?" among other statements shouted behind my back.

    Would a criminal come up and grab your gun... maybe in Philly or a bad part of any city.
    Last edited by david.ross; 10-17-2010 at 01:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by insane.kangaroo View Post
    When people see an OCer, they typically do not think ,"Oh hey look a citizen." Through all my interactions with the public, there's more people who ask if I'm a cop or a <insert government profession here>. I'm probably one of the individuals who do socialize on a larger scale with the general public, passersby, etc, I've one of those faces apparently which say "Oh Hai der!"

    Do I have to reiterate my experiences in Pittsburgh? Even when I don't wear fatigues or any tactical related clothing of sorts, I get "FUUCKING COP!", "PIG!", "OINK OINK", "WANT A DOUGHNUT?" among other statements shouted behind my back.

    Would a criminal come up and grab your gun... maybe in Philly or a bad part of any city.
    I think that is just your fault for looking like a LEO.

  24. #24
    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    I think that is just your fault for looking like a LEO.
    How do I look like a LEO when I'm wearing casual clothing?

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    maybe you should ask those who see you and conclude you are a LEO.

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