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Thread: question about brandishing - What if only the grip and back edge of the slide show?

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    question about brandishing - What if only the grip and back edge of the slide show?

    if you wear an IWB and you tuck your shirt in, and all you can see is the grip and back edge of the slide, isnt this brandishing??

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    Well, here is an excerpt from the brandishing statute in VA, 18.2-282:

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    I don't see it being brandishing. What do you think?
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-14-2010 at 02:19 AM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snazuolu View Post
    if you wear an IWB and you tuck your shirt in, and all you can see is the grip and back edge of the slide, isnt this brandishing??
    not even close
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I don't see it being brandishing.
    Me either. We call it the "Virginia Tuck"
    Carry On.

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    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
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    The fact that Virginia is an open carry friendly state is also why that is not brandishing. Other states that allow CC only probably would consider that brandishing.

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    in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured.

    knowing how liberals hate guns, i would say that yea, they would think that anyone who has a gun on them is out to shoot people.

    reason i am asking this is because my 1911, the grip at least tends to show sometimes when i wear my IWB. some call it printing, but i got to thinking, well whats the difference between printing and actually tucking your shirt in and just letting the grip show anyway.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    Just because someone has an irrational fear of guns doesn't mean that the fear induced by seeing your gun is reasonable
    This.

    While someone with this sort of irrational fear may try to argue, or complain to a police officer, that you were putting them in fear, if your actions are such that it is obvious you are doing nothing even approaching this, then their argument is moot.

    Would not this fall under what a "reasonable person" would surmise from being in the company of an armed citizen?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snazuolu View Post
    snip................. my 1911, the grip at least tends to show sometimes when i wear my IWB. some call it printing, but i got to thinking, well whats the difference between printing and actually tucking your shirt in and just letting the grip show anyway.
    Presume that you have your CHP from the way you describe carrying. Virginia's permit does NOT require that the handgun remain hidden/concealed; it only allows you to do so - your choice.

    Printing is not a gun peeking out from under a shirt/jacket. It is the outline/shape showing through a garment - the term is normally restricted to states that are hard nosed about keeping it hidden i.e. Florida.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    SNIP Virginia's permit does not require that the handgun remain hidden/concealed; it only allows you to do so - your choice.
    There. Fixed it for you.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-14-2010 at 11:28 PM.

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    Lightbulb You just gave us a legal basis...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    This.

    While someone with this sort of irrational fear may try to argue, or complain to a police officer, that you were putting them in fear, if your actions are such that it is obvious you are doing nothing even approaching this, then their argument is moot.

    Would not this fall under what a "reasonable person" would surmise from being in the company of an armed citizen?
    to explictly state that anti-s are not reasonable people, by definition, irrational, and therefore of questionable capability to do anything without harming others...

    Including running a city (Bloomberg) or a country (name withheld to protect the innocent)
    Last edited by vt800c; 10-15-2010 at 07:12 AM. Reason: typos...dang keyboards! I need COFFEE!!
    I sell ObamaBlades: Single-edged razors you can use to either remove the bumper sticker off your car, or slash your wrists..whichever works best for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snazuolu View Post
    in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured.

    knowing how liberals hate guns, i would say that yea, they would think that anyone who has a gun on them is out to shoot people.

    reason i am asking this is because my 1911, the grip at least tends to show sometimes when i wear my IWB. some call it printing, but i got to thinking, well whats the difference between printing and actually tucking your shirt in and just letting the grip show anyway.
    Correct. Brandishing involves intentional coercion or intimidation.

    Reminds me of Arnold's answer to Jamie Lee's question in "True Lies":
    "Did you ever kill anyone?"
    "Yeah, but dhay were all baad."

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post

    Reminds me of Arnold's answer to Jamie Lee's question in "True Lies":
    "Did you ever kill anyone?"
    "Yeah, but dhay were all baad."
    Sounds like the perfect HNK defense if I ever heard one!
    James Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snazuolu View Post
    if you wear an IWB and you tuck your shirt in, and all you can see is the grip and back edge of the slide, isnt this brandishing??
    If your firearm is IN A HOLSTER and you ain't fondling it, IT AIN'T BRANDISHING!!!!!!!!!!!! And even IF your hand is on the butt of the HOLSTERED firearm, IF YOU AIN'T ACTING IN AN AGGRESSIVE OR THREATENING MANNER, YOU AIN'T BRANDISHING!

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    If your firearm is IN A HOLSTER and you ain't fondling it, IT AIN'T BRANDISHING!!!!!!!!!!!!
    You don't have to be touching the gun to brandish it.
    James Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    You don't have to be touching the gun to brandish it.
    That's true Jim but it gets harder to prove and the act has to be more overt.

    A good example. As you've seen numerous times, I conceal my Taser even when I'm Ocing.
    I was in an all Mexican area the other day and needed to try on a jacket. I had the Taser in a shoulder holster.

    I took my jacket off and the place got empty fast (I thought I heard the word ICE)

    That was NOT brandishing and it would be darned hard to claim it was.

    Had I been in an argument over the price of beans and done the same thing, it well could have been argued it was to intimidate. The devil is really in the details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    You don't have to be touching the gun to brandish it.
    But that would be acting aggressive and/or threatening WHILE DEMONSTRATING THAT YOU HAD A WEAPON BY DRAWING ATTENTION TO IT IN SOME WAY.... OR FONDLING SAME!

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    You don't have to be touching the gun to brandish it.
    B.S. ! You're an 'instructor'? Here's Websters...

    'Definition of BRANDISH
    1: to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
    2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
    Examples of BRANDISH
    She brandished a stick at the dog.
    I could see that he was brandishing a knife.'


    To brandish indicates that you must have something in hand. A holstered/sheathed weapon is not borne in an ostentatious or aggressive manner (such as slung at the ready).

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    B.S. ! You're an 'instructor'? Here's Websters...

    'Definition of BRANDISH
    1: to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
    2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
    Examples of BRANDISH
    She brandished a stick at the dog.
    I could see that he was brandishing a knife.'


    To brandish indicates that you must have something in hand. A holstered/sheathed weapon is not borne in an ostentatious or aggressive manner (such as slung at the ready).
    If only Websters were recognized as law, life would be easier!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    If your firearm is IN A HOLSTER and you ain't fondling it, IT AIN'T BRANDISHING!!!!!!!!!!!! And even IF your hand is on the butt of the HOLSTERED firearm, IF YOU AIN'T ACTING IN AN AGGRESSIVE OR THREATENING MANNER, YOU AIN'T BRANDISHING!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    B.S. ! You're an 'instructor'? Here's Websters...

    'Definition of BRANDISH
    1: to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
    2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
    Examples of BRANDISH
    She brandished a stick at the dog.
    I could see that he was brandishing a knife.'


    To brandish indicates that you must have something in hand. A holstered/sheathed weapon is not borne in an ostentatious or aggressive manner (such as slung at the ready).


    Y'all have obviously been practicing law in Virginia a lot longer than I have - gee, I must be mistaken; but I think ProShooter's "dead on", myself. Or else you are confused because the legal term, "brandishing" looks as though it's English. Perhaps you missed my earlier post in this thread in which I explained what I think the crime of "brandishing" is all about.
    Last edited by user; 10-21-2010 at 03:50 PM.

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    Sonora Rebel maybe you and I have a wonderful advantage by living OUT WEST where the definitions and laws are somewhat MORE REALISTIC and less ONEROUS!.... you know, where a holstered firearm (absent other factors) is NOT BRANDISHING!

    Wish I had a "face into palm" animated thingy!

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Y'all have obviously been practicing law in Virginia a lot longer than I have - gee, I must be mistaken; but I think ProShooter's "dead on", myself. Or else you are confused because the legal term, "brandishing" looks as though it's English. Perhaps you missed my earlier post in this thread in which I explained what I think the crime of "brandishing" is all about.
    Maybe you missed that 'hold' part of the VA statute?

    Burton's Legal Thesaurus, 4E. Copyright © 2007 by William C. Burton. Used with permission of The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

    "brandish (verb) dangle before the eyes, display, draw one's sword, exhibit, flap, flaunt, flourish, gesture, rattle the saber, shake, show, swing, threaten, vibrare, wag, waggle, wave, wield.
    Associated concepts: harassment, menacing.

    INAL... I have common sense and normal comprehension... and I no longer inhabit the east where such is in short supply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    B.S. ! You're an 'instructor'? Here's Websters...

    'Definition of BRANDISH
    1: to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
    2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
    Examples of BRANDISH
    She brandished a stick at the dog.
    I could see that he was brandishing a knife.'


    To brandish indicates that you must have something in hand. A holstered/sheathed weapon is not borne in an ostentatious or aggressive manner (such as slung at the ready).
    And if the first replies to this don't hammer home the point, read this case: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1032714.pdf

    The man's conviction for brandishing was upheld simply because he lifted his shirt to display* a flare gun tucked in his waistband.

    If Webster's were the source of legal guidance, we probably wouldn't need lawyers...

    TFred

    * Just noticed, "display" is one of the words used in your quoted legal definition...
    Last edited by TFred; 10-21-2010 at 04:48 PM. Reason: Add *

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Sonora Rebel maybe you and I have a wonderful advantage by living OUT WEST where the definitions and laws are somewhat MORE REALISTIC and less ONEROUS!.... you know, where a holstered firearm (absent other factors) is NOT BRANDISHING!

    Wish I had a "face into palm" animated thingy!
    watch it buddy, without VA and our declaration of rights which predates the United States of America, there wouldn't even be a Utah

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post

    I took my jacket off and the place got empty fast (I thought I heard the word ICE)
    careful, ice is urban slang for "shoot" or "kill" just as much as Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

    Unless you also heard "no me Taze hermano!" then they probably thought you were law enforcement


    (and I don't know if "taze" has a spanish equiv.)
    Last edited by nova; 10-21-2010 at 05:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Y'all have obviously been practicing law in Virginia a lot longer than I have - gee, I must be mistaken; but I think ProShooter's "dead on", myself. Or else you are confused because the legal term, "brandishing" looks as though it's English. Perhaps you missed my earlier post in this thread in which I explained what I think the crime of "brandishing" is all about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    Maybe you missed that 'hold' part of the VA statute?

    Burton's Legal Thesaurus, 4E. Copyright © 2007 by William C. Burton. Used with permission of The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

    "brandish (verb) dangle before the eyes, display, draw one's sword, exhibit, flap, flaunt, flourish, gesture, rattle the saber, shake, show, swing, threaten, vibrare, wag, waggle, wave, wield.
    Associated concepts: harassment, menacing.

    INAL... I have common sense and normal comprehension... and I no longer inhabit the east where such is in short supply.
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And if the first replies to this don't hammer home the point, read this case: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1032714.pdf

    The man's conviction for brandishing was upheld simply because he lifted his shirt to display* a flare gun tucked in his waistband.

    If Webster's were the source of legal guidance, we probably wouldn't need lawyers...

    TFred

    * Just noticed, "display" is one of the words used in your quoted legal definition...
    “Brandish” means “to exhibit or expose in an ostentatious,
    shameless, or aggressive manner.” Webster's Third New
    International Dictionary, 268 (1993). When Morris looked at
    Ms. Molina, said “[he'd] like that,” and then pulled up his
    shirt to uncover the flare gun, he exhibited or exposed the
    weapon in a shameless or aggressive manner. And Morris
    brandished the weapon in such a manner as to reasonably induce
    fear in the mind of Peter Molina. Although Molina may not have
    said he was in fear for his own safety, he stated unequivocally
    that he feared for the safety of his wife, and that is
    sufficient to prove the “induced fear” element of a conviction
    for brandishing a firearm under Code § 18.2-282.
    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1032714.pdf

    Different definitions may apply in different states. When in Virginia, it is best to not aggressively display your handgun whether you touch it or not. End of story.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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