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Thread: Concealed and/or Open Carry at "Festival" in NC?

  1. #1
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    Concealed and/or Open Carry at "Festival" in NC?

    It seems like there are slightly different nuances to each of these questions, and not sure if this one has been batted around yet.

    All I recall from NC gen statutes deals with "parades" etc

    "§ 14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.

    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. "

    Can we carry either open or concealed to a "festival"? The only other thing I can think of they might toss around (if the police want to nail you) is "establishment where alcohol is sold and consumed" depending on the festival. I highly doubt the entire festival could be considered "AN" establishment since the alcohol would likely be sold by various vendors. I would assume that likely only the area where you can purchase the alcohol and designated seating for patrons could be construed as such "establishment" for these purposes.

    FYI there are festivals near UNCG (not ON UNCG property) and downtown Greensboro and High Point that I might like to attend OCing to have higher probability of getting the word out and handing out brochures when approached.

    Other thoughts?

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    Regular Member smlawrence's Avatar
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    or How about admission being charged?
    "God, Guns, & Guts Made America, Lets Use All 3!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by smlawrence View Post
    or How about admission being charged?
    True, none of the festivals I have looked at have charged admission, but it would be likely some might. That is most likely off limits, but still wondering about the other issues.

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    The city festival in kernersville for the Spring Folly is specifically prohibited per city ordinance.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekender View Post
    The city festival in kernersville for the Spring Folly is specifically prohibited per city ordinance.
    I presume you mean "No Guns."

    How does this fly under state preemption?
    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat...14-409.40.html
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    The area for the Folly is not roped off so I dont know.

    ARTICLE III. ANNUAL SPRING FOLLY*

    __________
    *Editor's note: Ord. No. 93-8, adopted Apr. 6, 1993, amended the Code by adding § 5-42. For the purposes of classification, said Ord. No. 93-8 has been redesignated as § 5-61, at the discretion of the editor. Exhibit A referred to is not included, but is on file in the offices of the town.

    __________

    Sec. 5-61. Establishment and regulations governing the annual Spring Folly.
    (a) Creation and authorization for event.
    (1) An annual festival to be known as The Spring Folly is hereby established.
    (2) All regulations as set forth in provisions of subsection (b) of this section shall be in effect within the "designated area" as defined in subsection (a)(5) during all such times as may be declared annually by the board of aldermen of the town by resolution for The Spring Folly.
    (3) The town chamber of commerce is designated and authorized as the coordinating entity for The Spring Folly.
    (4) The town chamber of commerce shall purchase from the town a privilege license in accordance with the ordinances of the town governing the same, for the conduct of business during The Spring Folly.
    (5) The town chamber of commerce may utilize any public property, including but not limited to parks, streets, sidewalks, and town property for the purposes of conducting The Spring Folly within the area shown on the attached map (exhibit A), which is incorporated within this section and hereinafter referred to as "designated area."
    (6) The town chamber of commerce is authorized to exercise general control over all activities within the designated area.
    (7) The town chamber of commerce is authorized to establish a permitting process for any and all arts, crafts, recreation, solicitation, exhibit, exhibition, booth, sale of goods, and/or other activity(ies) within the designated area.
    (8) The town chamber of commerce shall establish opening and closing times for all activities within the designated area except as to those businesses identified under subsection (b)(1)b.
    (9) The town chamber of commerce shall control placement of all activities within the designated area, provided that in addition thereto:
    a. All recreational and entertainment activities shall be approved by the town recreation director; and
    b. No permit for any activity shall be issued by the chamber of commerce for placement of such activity in front of any business identified under subsection (b)(1)b. without the express approval of the owner(s) of such business.
    (b) Regulations governing events.
    (1) No arts, crafts, recreation, game, concession, entertainment, exhibition, booth, sale of goods, business or other activity shall be established, set up or occur within the designated area except:
    a. As authorized by the town chamber of commerce; or
    b. As to businesses occupying permanently established structures and possessing a valid privilege license issued by the town.
    (2) No individual shall operate any activity within the designated area except in accordance with section (b)(1)b.
    (3) Except for emergency vehicles and those vehicles authorized by the chief of police, no other vehicle(s) shall have access to the designated area except as authorized by the town chamber of commerce.
    (4) No alcoholic beverage(s) shall be possessed, nor consumed, within the designated area except within the premises of those businesses identified under (b)(1)b.
    (5) No person shall at any time have in his possession any firearm or dangerous weapon within the designated area. This provision shall not be applicable to officers of the police department nor officers of other law enforcement agencies.
    (6) No person shall at any time bring into or control within the "designated area" any animal or pet. This provision shall not be applicable to:
    a. Canine units of the town's police department and/or other law enforcement agencies;
    b. Any animal or pet whose owner resides within the "designated area" of The Spring Folly and which remains upon the property of its owner;
    c. Any "guide dog" used to assist visually impaired and/or physically handicapped persons; and
    d. Any "petting zoo" or other attraction authorized and approved by the town's chamber of commerce and the town's parks and recreation director.
    (c) Any violation of this section, or any subsection thereof, shall constitute a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500.00) or by imprisonment for a term not to exceed thirty (30) days, or both.
    (Ord. No. 93-8, 4-6-93; Ord. No. 00-26, 10-3-00)

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    I had wondered about this as well recently while at River Fest in Wilmington, They had the No Concealed weapons signs up at the roadblocks leading to the festival, but they did not have the signs at every entrance. I parked in a parking deck then walked down through the parking deck right on the water and there were no signs there at all.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I presume you mean "No Guns."

    How does this fly under state preemption?
    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat...14-409.40.html

    Grape,

    NC State Preemption is a joke. IT basically says "Cities can't restrict possession or carry of a gun, unless they pass a code or ordinance restricting possession or carry of a gun, which they are allowed to do on any city property..."

    We need to put some teeth in our preemption statute--like VA's law--so that it just simply says "Cities can't restrict possession or carry more than State or Federal law."

    Period. End of discussion.

    Our "preemption" sucks. Most cities prohibit carry in ANY city-owned building. Some prohibit carry in parks. And technically, ANY municipality could prohibit carry on sidewalks and streets, because most of those are city property. However, most cities don't try that, because sidewalks and roadways are considered to be "public access property". The NC AG has determined that even though the City might technically "own" the sidewalks and streets, as roadways or paths of conveyance, they are not generally considered "municipal property" under State Preemption.

    So in other words, Cities COULD prohibit OC and CC in public in NC, but there is about a 99% chance that such an ordinance or code would get smacked down by the Courts....
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-14-2010 at 11:51 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekender View Post
    The city festival in kernersville for the Spring Folly is specifically prohibited per city ordinance.
    If this festival is held on City property, then this ordinance is 100% legal.

    It's also 100% BULL$HI+, but it is perfectly within the bounds of our state's toothless "preemption" statute.

    If, however, it is private property, and anyone other than the city (private corporation, civic group, etc) is leasing the property for this festival, then this ordinance is NOT LEGAL, and needs to be challenged...


    As for the "establishment that serve alcohol for consumption of premise" thing, i am assuming this is an outdoor, open-air festival, and that there is a roped-off, designated "beer/wine zone". If this is the case, you could legally carry there (if there wasn't a city code prohibiting carry) as long as you didn't go inside the "booze zone", or weren't drinking or purchasing alcohol yourself.

    I went through this last fall with the Greenville PD and ended up calling the NC ABCC and the NC AG's office to get clarification.

    They have an event here called "Pirate Fest" and they have roped-off open-air beer and wine zones.

    The local police gave me two stories--one group of new (they looke VERY young) GPD officers told me that carry at "Pirate Fest" of any kind was illegal because they served alcohol. Another group--some older cops--told me that carry would be legal, because they didn't charge admission, and it was a public street--as long as I didn't drink, or go into the "roped off zone"...

    The ABCC refused to give me a straight answer unless I could provide them with the temporary outdoor event liquor license number. They referred me to the AG.

    The AG said it was legal, as long as I didn't go into the "restricted zone" or didn't drink any alcohol myself.

    This festival sounds different though. To get a definite answer as to whether or not this law is legal depends on where the festival is. If it's in a park, or in the parking lot of a firehouse or city building, they might be legally able to prohibit carry.

    But if it is on public streets, like an area of town where they block the streets off "block party" style, then their law is NOT legal under NC State Preemption, and needs to be challenges in a city council meeting, or even in the Courts...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    The festival is held on both public streets and sidewalks as well as on the grassy areas of private homes and businesses and churches. Also some of it is done in parking lots that are accessible to the public even if they are privately owned.

    Here are some pictures:

    http://www.kernersvillespringfolly.com/2006/17.jpg

    http://www.kernersvillespringfolly.com/2006/50.jpg

    http://www.kernersvillespringfolly.com/2006/11.jpg

    http://www.kernersvillespringfolly.com/2006/41.jpg

    I actually live in the city limits, any suggestions on how to start getting this law taken off the books without suing?
    Last edited by mekender; 10-15-2010 at 12:25 AM.

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    I found this for Salisbury

    ARTICLE VI. PUBLIC STREET FESTIVALS AND SPECIAL EVENTS WITHIN THE MUNICIPAL SERVICE DISTRICT
    Sec. 22-154. Firearms.
    Except for sworn certified law enforcement personnel, the possession of firearms in the public street festival or special event area is prohibited.
    (Ord. No. 2008-48, § 1, 9-16-08)

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    Octoberfest in Hickory has and area set aside for drinking. The alcohol cannot leave the tent. So that takes care of the alcohol issue. I did not go this year, so I can't say if it was posted otherwise. But it's also held on a mix of public and private property too. Not that it would stop them.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Is there a thread currently that lists the state laws that need to be changed? (Preemption, admission, restaurants, etc.)

    If not I'll start one, but if there already is one I'll just add to it.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekender View Post
    I actually live in the city limits, any suggestions on how to start getting this law taken off the books without suing?

    You could print out all the relevant State Statutes about Preemption (that prohibit this sort of local ordinance) and a copy of the local codes, and show up at a City Council meeting and let them know that if this law isn't removed from the City ordinances, the next person they will be hearing from is an attorney.

    IF they change the law, then GREAT. If not, then you need to call the NC AG's office and ask them if they will address this issue, and get the City to remove this illegal ordinance.

    It is against NC law for any city to restrict or prohibit lawful and legal carry or possession of firearms in "public places" or on private property. Private property owners can post their property, or ask you to leave if they don't want you carrying, but a city or municipality CANNOT pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces (with the exception of Cary and Chapel Hill) unless they are actually buildings.

    If you don't want to deal with this, I'd GLADLY take this one on for you. I don't live in Kernersville, nor am I planning to visit this Festival, but I'd LOVE to take this project on.

    I've got the NC AG's office on speed dial...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-15-2010 at 10:07 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You could print out all the relevant State Statutes about Preemption (that prohibit this sort of local ordinance) and a copy of the local codes, and show up at a City Council meeting and let them know that if this law isn't removed from the City ordinances, the next person they will be hearing from is an attorney.

    IF they change the law, then GREAT. If not, then you need to call the NC AG's office and ask them if they will address this issue, and get the City to remove this illegal ordinance.

    It is against NC law for any city to restrict or prohibit lawful and legal carry or possession of firearms in "public places" or on private property. Private property owners can post their property, or ask you to leave if they don't want you carrying, but a city or municipality CANNOT pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces (with the exception of Cary and Chapel Hill) unless they are actually buildings.

    If you don't want to deal with this, I'd GLADLY take this one on for you. I don't live in Kernersville, nor am I planning to visit this Festival, but I'd LOVE to take this project on.

    I've got the NC AG's office on speed dial...
    Well lets get it on then :-D

    Ill owe ya a few beers.

    I dont mind putting my name on things and doing it but I am for sure going to need some guidance.
    Last edited by mekender; 10-15-2010 at 11:16 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    First thing Monday, then, I'll start making phone calls...

    I'll keep y'all posted...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    dreamer, i almost ran into this situation last week at the "autumn leaves festival" last week in Mt. Airy. no alcohol allowed but they do have a similar ordinance on carry in the festival area.
    Sec. 9-88. Weapons.
    Except for sworn certified Law Enforcement personnel, the possession of firearms in the festival area is prohibited. This restriction does not apply to the exhibits of weapons by authorized vendors.
    (Ord. of 8-3-99)

    Sec. 9-89. Penalty.
    A violation of this article shall constitute a misdemeanor, and such violations of the provisions of this article shall be punishable by a fine not exceeding $50.00 or by imprisonment for a tern not exceeding 30 days, or both.
    (Ord. of 8-3-99)
    Sec. 9-86. Prohibited conduct.
    (a) No animals or reptiles will be allowed in the festival area except those exhibits that are sanctioned by the Chamber of Commerce. Seeing eye dogs are allowed.
    (b) No alcoholic beverages shall be consumed or displayed in the festival area except within those business establishments holding an on-premises license as defined in G.S. § 18B.
    (Ord. of 8-3-99)

    thanks dreamer for your efforts to this
    Last edited by papa bear; 10-16-2010 at 02:46 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Ive got calls in to the Chief of Police and City Attorney for Kernersville, as well as the NC Attorney General's office...

    Hopefully I can get a straight answer by early next week...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You could print out all the relevant State Statutes about Preemption (that prohibit this sort of local ordinance) and a copy of the local codes, and show up at a City Council meeting and let them know that if this law isn't removed from the City ordinances, the next person they will be hearing from is an attorney.

    IF they change the law, then GREAT. If not, then you need to call the NC AG's office and ask them if they will address this issue, and get the City to remove this illegal ordinance.

    It is against NC law for any city to restrict or prohibit lawful and legal carry or possession of firearms in "public places" or on private property. Private property owners can post their property, or ask you to leave if they don't want you carrying, but a city or municipality CANNOT pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces (with the exception of Cary and Chapel Hill) unless they are actually buildings.

    If you don't want to deal with this, I'd GLADLY take this one on for you. I don't live in Kernersville, nor am I planning to visit this Festival, but I'd LOVE to take this project on.

    I've got the NC AG's office on speed dial...
    Out of curiousity, what is so special about Cary & Chapel Hill? Why can they pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces?
    "God, Guns, & Guts Made America, Lets Use All 3!!!"

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    SNIP
    Private property owners can post their property, or ask you to leave if they don't want you carrying, but a city or municipality CANNOT pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces (with the exception of Cary and Chapel Hill) unless they are actually buildings.
    Or parks.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smlawrence View Post
    Out of curiousity, what is so special about Cary & Chapel Hill? Why can they pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces?

    That's all about the "color of money".

    The color of the "wrong kinds of people" they were originally intended to disarm, and the HUGE amounts of old money in those areas that gets donated to Raleigh every 2 years.

    Anyone who tries to explain those "exemptions" by any other reasoning is either ignorant of the legislative history of those laws, or is lying through their teeth to cover up the real story...

    Most of the firearms laws in NC (and MOST of this nation, for that matter) are a disgusting remnant of the legacy of racism, sexism and classism that is still ingrained in much of the Governmental bodies of the US.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer:

    The problem with Northg Carolina is that their Preemption is 'Toothless' so-to-speak.

    BOTH North Carolina General Statute 14.409.40 AND General Statute 14.415.23 ALLOW Local Governments to preclude Firearms Possession at their: 1. Parks, AND 2. Local Government Buildings and their Appurtenant Premises.

    aadvark

  23. #23
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Dreamer:

    The problem with Northg Carolina is that their Preemption is 'Toothless' so-to-speak.

    BOTH North Carolina General Statute 14.409.40 AND General Statute 14.415.23 ALLOW Local Governments to preclude Firearms Possession at their: 1. Parks, AND 2. Local Government Buildings and their Appurtenant Premises.

    aadvark
    Yeah, we know.

    And believe me, we hate it.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I just got a call-back fro the NC AG, and their answer to this is a no-answer. I was told that they do not give legal advice to individuals, and I need to take it up with the City Attorney...

    Who I ALSO have a call in to, and am awaiting a response.

    Looks like this may take a trip to Kernersville to attend a City Council Meeting sometime in the next few months, to suggest they change the law, or prepare for a lawsuit...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I just got a call-back fro the NC AG, and their answer to this is a no-answer. I was told that they do not give legal advice to individuals, and I need to take it up with the City Attorney...

    Who I ALSO have a call in to, and am awaiting a response.

    Looks like this may take a trip to Kernersville to attend a City Council Meeting sometime in the next few months, to suggest they change the law, or prepare for a lawsuit...
    Let me know, Ill go with you.

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