Concealed and/or Open Carry at "Festival" in NC?

smlawrence said:

Out of curiousity, what is so special about Cary & Chapel Hill? Why can they pass an ordinance that prohibits carry on public streets, sidewalks, or publicly accessible municipal public spaces?

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That's all about the "color of money".

The color of the "wrong kinds of people" they were originally intended to disarm, and the HUGE amounts of old money in those areas that gets donated to Raleigh every 2 years.

Anyone who tries to explain those "exemptions" by any other reasoning is either ignorant of the legislative history of those laws, or is lying through their teeth to cover up the real story...

Most of the firearms laws in NC (and MOST of this nation, for that matter) are a disgusting remnant of the legacy of racism, sexism and classism that is still ingrained in much of the Governmental bodies of the US.

Dreamer:

The problem with Northg Carolina is that their Preemption is 'Toothless' so-to-speak.

BOTH North Carolina General Statute 14.409.40 AND General Statute 14.415.23 ALLOW Local Governments to preclude Firearms Possession at their: 1. Parks, AND 2. Local Government Buildings and their Appurtenant Premises.

aadvark

aadvark said:

Dreamer:

The problem with Northg Carolina is that their Preemption is 'Toothless' so-to-speak.

BOTH North Carolina General Statute 14.409.40 AND General Statute 14.415.23 ALLOW Local Governments to preclude Firearms Possession at their: 1. Parks, AND 2. Local Government Buildings and their Appurtenant Premises.

aadvark

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Yeah, we know.

And believe me, we hate it.

I just got a call-back fro the NC AG, and their answer to this is a no-answer. I was told that they do not give legal advice to individuals, and I need to take it up with the City Attorney...

Who I ALSO have a call in to, and am awaiting a response.

Looks like this may take a trip to Kernersville to attend a City Council Meeting sometime in the next few months, to suggest they change the law, or prepare for a lawsuit...

Dreamer said:

I just got a call-back fro the NC AG, and their answer to this is a no-answer. I was told that they do not give legal advice to individuals, and I need to take it up with the City Attorney...

Who I ALSO have a call in to, and am awaiting a response.

Looks like this may take a trip to Kernersville to attend a City Council Meeting sometime in the next few months, to suggest they change the law, or prepare for a lawsuit...

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Let me know, Ill go with you.

On a similar note, a friend at ECU informed me that in order to join the Halloween bash in downtown Greenville, you have to be searched and aren't allowed to carry any firearms or even plastic swords, etc. I've never been down there on Halloween (and don't intend to) but I'm told they set up barricades to block off the street. You have to go through some sort of checkpoint to get into the main party. Is this legal for them to ban firearms on a public street? No admission is being charged either. I'm assuming alcohol is only consumed in the bars and not allowed outside. I understand why they want to ban weapons in a place where people are going to be intoxicated, but can't understand how they can do this legally.

mattwestm said:

On a similar note, a friend at ECU informed me that in order to join the Halloween bash in downtown Greenville, you have to be searched and aren't allowed to carry any firearms or even plastic swords, etc. I've never been down there on Halloween (and don't intend to) but I'm told they set up barricades to block off the street. You have to go through some sort of checkpoint to get into the main party. Is this legal for them to ban firearms on a public street? No admission is being charged either. I'm assuming alcohol is only consumed in the bars and not allowed outside. I understand why they want to ban weapons in a place where people are going to be intoxicated, but can't understand how they can do this legally.

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Neither can I. With a little more notice, we could pull an AB&E and take it to the city council.

mattwestm said:

On a similar note, a friend at ECU informed me that in order to join the Halloween bash in downtown Greenville, you have to be searched and aren't allowed to carry any firearms or even plastic swords, etc. I've never been down there on Halloween (and don't intend to) but I'm told they set up barricades to block off the street. You have to go through some sort of checkpoint to get into the main party. Is this legal for them to ban firearms on a public street? No admission is being charged either. I'm assuming alcohol is only consumed in the bars and not allowed outside. I understand why they want to ban weapons in a place where people are going to be intoxicated, but can't understand how they can do this legally.

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If this event does not charge admission, and is held on public streets, they CAN'T ban lawful carry--at least not legally under NC Statutes.

A few weeks ago, on a "regular" Friday night (when they had sections of 5th St. barricaded) I was OCing in the area of 5th and Evans for about 2 hours--in the full view of about a dozen different GPD officers, and nobody ever said "Boo". But that wasn't an "event"--it was just a regular Friday Night...

Also, I've been told that OC or CC is perfectly legal on the blocked off street areas during Freeboot Fridays, and "Pirate Day", as long as you are not consuming alcohol, and stay out of the outdoor alcohol-serving areas.

So I don't see how Hallowween makes it any different, from a Statutory point of view. In fact, it is specifically prohibited for the city to regulate, ban, or limit lawful carry on public streets and sidewalks, per NCGC § 14‑409.40:

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-409.40.html

§ 14‑409.40. Statewide uniformity of local regulation.

(b) Unless otherwise permitted by statute, no county or municipality, by ordinance, resolution, or other enactment, shall regulate in any manner the possession, ownership, storage, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, or registration of firearms, firearms ammunition, components of firearms, dealers in firearms, or dealers in handgun components or parts.
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I'll call the Greenville City Attorney Friday about this one...

Do you have the City Code or Ordinance that spells this out? That would be a HUGE help when talking to the City Attorney.

I've been told by friends that they ID you in order to enter the barricade. How is this legal? Why should you be ID'd to enter a portion of a street? No one is buying alcohol or even entering a bar, just going into the street. I was told by a staff member that there will be snipers on the roof and men with shotguns loaded with beanbags/teargas in case of riot (which has happened in the past). I think I'll pass on the Halloween downtown madness, but I would like to find out how they can legally ban firearms.

This quote was in an email I got from the University: "The bar area will be closed off. There will be barricades set up at all entry and exit points. You will be subject to search before you can gain entry." Does this mean you will be searched to enter bars or to enter the street?

Also, "Prohibited: Knives, guns, pocket knives, swords, poles, toy guns, any sharp objects, anything that could be perceived as being used as a weapon. Note!! Alcohol or drugs-violators will be subject to arrest."

mattwestm said:

I've been told by friends that they ID you in order to enter the barricade. How is this legal? Why should you be ID'd to enter a portion of a street? No one is buying alcohol or even entering a bar, just going into the street. I was told by a staff member that there will be snipers on the roof and men with shotguns loaded with beanbags/teargas in case of riot (which has happened in the past). I think I'll pass on the Halloween downtown madness, but I would like to find out how they can legally ban firearms.

This quote was in an email I got from the University: "The bar area will be closed off. There will be barricades set up at all entry and exit points. You will be subject to search before you can gain entry." Does this mean you will be searched to enter bars or to enter the street?

Also, "Prohibited: Knives, guns, pocket knives, swords, poles, toy guns, any sharp objects, anything that could be perceived as being used as a weapon. Note!! Alcohol or drugs-violators will be subject to arrest."

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Better to post "No Criminals or Criminal Acts Allowed"
Wonder how that would work out?

Snipers on the roof, shotguns w/bean bags, tear gas - really? Sounds more like a typical day at your local DOC facility.

I've been playing pphone tag with both Greenville and Kernersville this week...

Hopefully I can have the Kernersville issue answered by early next week.

I don't think I'll get a straight answer fro Greenville before tomorrow. I think I'll be avoiding the downtown area of Greenville on Saturday night, but I'll keep on them for an answer. I just don't see how they can prohibit lawful carry on a public street, given the wording of §14-409.40. I'm sure they will have some sort of convoluted, creative, and entirely nonsensical explanation. Probably like the answer I got from Beaufort CO. regarding polling places--"it's not technically against the law, but we'll arrest you anyway"...

I just received a callback from the Greenville City Attorney, and here is their opinion.

He said that this policy of prohibiting entry to the "party area" during the Halloween bash isn't a "prohibition of carrying firearms", it just bars entry to a specific area during a specific time, and therefore doesn't violate §14-409.40 of the state statute.

He told me that since I'm not "required" to go into that part of town during that time, that this policy doesn't violate state law.

He also said that if I had a CHP and tried to enter the area, the firearm would be confiscated, but then I would be allowed to enter. But if I was OCing, the firearm would be confiscated and I would be charged. He would not explain why a CHP holder would not be charged, or what violation I would be charged with.

HE also said that they had a ruling from the NC AG that upheld this policy.

So apparently, under this logic, §14-409.40 makes it against state law for cities to restrict possession or carry of a firearm, UNLESS a city prohibits carry or possession of a firearm...

Huh?

So essentially, this is one for the courts to decide. And since my pockets are not NEARLY deep enough to "take this one for the team", I will just be avoiding Greenville Sunday night...

Maybe Paul Valone and GRNC might be interested in this one?

We need to re-write §14-409.40. IT is toothless, meaningless, and does NOTHING practical to limit these sorts of ordinances, codes,or policies from being arbitrarily enacted and enforced by cities and counties. We need a REAL preemption statute like they have in VA, that just plainly states cities and counties CAN NOT do this sort of thing--no exceptions, no waivers, END OF DISCUSSION...

Get out and vote on Nov. 2, folks. It's time to send a message to Raleigh that we wont put up with these sorts of shenanigans any longer, and if the government isn't going to change willingly, we will GLADLY force change upon them at the polls...

Personally, I can't understand why NC has a "gold star" rating with OCDO. We have a toothless preemption statute that does NOTHING to limit the arbitrary application and enforcement of random prohibitions on lawful carry enacted by municipalities. We don't allow carry in alcohol-serving establishments or venues that charge admission. We don't allow ANY sort of carry on school property---even FOPA-compliant transport. We don't allow carry in ANY government buildings, or in State Park property. And the arbitrary standards for PPPs and CHP applications are becoming a HUGE issue.

NC's rating with ODCO should be downgraded, IMO.

What's the difference between not allowing open carry/concealed carry during a specific time and at any time? Both are banning firearms and not following state law. True, I don't have to go through that part of 5th street, but what if I *did* have to. What if I owned a business in the area where the party is? Am I not allowed to carry a firearm in my own business?

To be perfectly honest, I don't quite understand this Halloween nonsense. If there is a need for snipers and teargas, etc, then obviously they plan on the event getting out of hand as it has in the past, and the event should no longer be allowed. On a second note, why do they have the right to search people? What if I just wanted to get dinner downtown that night? Am I subject to search because I want to eat dinner with my fiancé and want nothing to do with partying? Why would someone need to be ID'd? That should be the responsibility of bars serving alcohol. If I'm not partaking, getting ID'd shouldn't apply to me.

I'm never up near campus past 5PM, but if I ever get dinner up there, I make sure it isn't a Friday or weekend night.

I'm guessing NC has a Gold Star rating because anyone can OC without any permit. But with all of the limitations, it should be rated less.

mattwestm said:

I'm guessing NC has a Gold Star rating because anyone can OC without any permit. But with all of the limitations, it should be rated less.

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We can OC anywhere, except:

1. In a place that serves alcohol.
2. On school property
3. In any place that charges admission
4. in any government buildings
5. in some city parks
6. in polling places
7. in State Parks
8. on state-owned boat ramps
9. at parades, funerals, or protests
10. In the city of Cary
11. in any area that some city arbitrarily designates as a gun-free zone, for any reason,

Yeah we can OC anywhere--as long at it's a WalMart, or private property, and not during any sort of festival or gathering... :banghead:

We should lose our "gold star" rating. Our "State Preemption" statute is a joke...

Dreamer said:

We can OC anywhere, except:

1. In a place that serves alcohol.
2. On school property
3. In any place that charges admission
4. in any government buildings
5. in some city parks
6. in polling places
7. in State Parks
8. on state-owned boat ramps
9. at parades, funerals, or protests
10. In the city of Cary
11. in any area that some city arbitrarily designates as a gun-free zone, for any reason,

Yeah we can OC anywhere--as long at it's a WalMart, or private property, and not during any sort of festival or gathering... :banghead:

We should lose our "gold star" rating. Our "State Preemption" statute is a joke...

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Can you cite nos. 4 and 11?

Dreamer said:

We can OC anywhere, except:

1. In a place that serves alcohol.
2. On school property
3. In any place that charges admission
4. in any government buildings
5. in some city parks
6. in polling places
7. in State Parks
8. on state-owned boat ramps
9. at parades, funerals, or protests
10. In the city of Cary
11. in any area that some city arbitrarily designates as a gun-free zone, for any reason,

Yeah we can OC anywhere--as long at it's a WalMart, or private property, and not during any sort of festival or gathering... :banghead:

We should lose our "gold star" rating. Our "State Preemption" statute is a joke...

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sultan62 said:

Can you cite nos. 4 and 11?

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Cite for #4:
Cities and counties may apply the authority they are given under certain specified state statutes to regulate or prohibit possession of firearms in, or on the grounds or in the parking areas of, publicly owned buildings, public parks, or recreation areas. Section 14-409.40(f). http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-409.40.html

• from lawfully storing firearms within a motor vehicle when the vehicle is in any of these public locations;
• A local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of prohibitions against carrying concealed handguns in local government buildings and parks (but is expressly prohibited from enacting other ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun). Section 14-415.23;
• And - §14-269.4; §14-415.11(c); §14-415.11(c)

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/northcarolina.pdf

#11 in Dreamer's post is an opinion (a rant if you will) on the abysmal state of NC preemption.

for #11, I beg to differ with Grapeshot. It's not my opinion. There are in fact, official municipal codes for Kernersville that include arbitrary, temporary, (and illegal) bans on carry for specific events on public streets, and the officially announced (illegal) "policy" in Greenville for the Halloween Party downtown.

But if you need actual links to real MuniCodes, we can start with Kernersville MuniCode Sec. 5-61(b)(5)

http://library1.municode.com:80/def...7c11d248ae8c413843b3097dd517f9&infobase=12102


I'm sure there are many others, but they haven't come up yet and quite frankly I don' thave the time right now to comb through every municode for NC cities searching for these ordinances...

Haven't you been following this thread?

Dreamer said:

for #11, I beg to differ with Grapeshot. It's not my opinion. There are in fact, official municipal codes for Kernersville that include arbitrary, temporary, (and illegal) bans on carry for specific events on public streets, and the officially announced (illegal) "policy" in Greenville for the Halloween Party downtown.

But if you need actual links to real MuniCodes, we can start with Kernersville MuniCode Sec. 5-61(b)(5)

http://library1.municode.com:80/def...7c11d248ae8c413843b3097dd517f9&infobase=12102


I'm sure there are many others, but they haven't come up yet and quite frankly I don' thave the time right now to comb through every municode for NC cities searching for these ordinances...

Haven't you been following this thread?

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Re: No. 4: They may make a law prohibiting OC there, but it is not expressly so.

Re: No. 11: There may be a local law against it, but it violates NC law, therefore it is not legal. If they made a law regulating carry on your own property would you follow it?

sultan62 said:

Re: No. 4: They may make a law prohibiting OC there, but it is not expressly so.

Re: No. 11: There may be a local law against it, but it violates NC law, therefore it is not legal. If they made a law regulating carry on your own property would you follow it?

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If a law isnt legal but you still get arrested, charged and convicted of it, it is still the law...

These kinds of ordinances will have to get challenged up the court system, this costs a lot of money, time and risks having you get into criminal trouble in order to get standing to sue.

mekender said:

If a law isnt legal but you still get arrested, charged and convicted of it, it is still the law...

These kinds of ordinances will have to get challenged up the court system, this costs a lot of money, time and risks having you get into criminal trouble in order to get standing to sue.

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Agreed. My point (which is yet to be disproven) is that the examples are not against NC law.