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Thread: Judge rules concealed carry ban unconstitutional(Clark County Wisconsin)

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    Judge rules concealed carry ban unconstitutional(Clark County Wisconsin)

    A Clark County judge says Wisconsin’s ban on carrying concealed weapons is unconstitutional. In the case, authorities charged a Sauk City man with carrying a concealed weapon, after he admitted he had a knife in his waistband. He never threatened anyone. In light of the landmark Supreme Court ruling in McDonald v. City of Chicago, attorney William Poss filed a motion to dismiss the case on constitutional grounds. Judge Jon Counsell obliged Wednesday, ruling the law is overly broad and violates both the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution.

    “The government has to have a compelling state interest to do so (restrict the right to carry) and they have to have the least restrictive means of doing that,” said Poss. “Public safety obviously is a state interest, but there’s all kinds of ways to do that in this regard.” In his decision, Counsell states the law forces citizens to “go unarmed (thus not able to act in self defense), violate the law or carry openly,” but notes displaying weapon’s openly isn’t a “realistic alternative.”

    As of now, the decision only sets a precedent in Counsell’s court, but Poss expects the case will be appealed. “It’s ultimately going to get to either the Wisconsin Supreme Court and or the United States Supreme Court one way or another,” he predicted. The decision was disseminated around the state Wednesday, and Poss already had 50 congratulatory phone messages or e-mails from colleagues by Wednesday afternoon. “There’s a lot of interest in this obviously,” he said. “It’s not a left or right type of thing quite frankly. It’s a liberty thing.”

    Clark County Assistant District Attorney Dick Lewis said he has 20 days to appeal the ruling, and no decision has been made. Wisconsin is one of only two states which completely ban carrying concealed weapons.

    http://www.wrn.com/2010/10/county-ju...onstitutional/

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Eh?

    Good news deserves to be repeated... lol.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 10-14-2010 at 10:14 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member springfield 1911's Avatar
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    Yes it does, After 13 yrs the legislators failed to pass a pp bill and their inability to to do so even after the W.S.S.C told them to do so, I feel it is no longer in our best interest to support a permit system now.
    To do so now would undermine what D.A Fox , Judge Jon Counsell and the other Judges And D.A's in the state whom have dismissed charges because they recognize that we have rights.

    Let us recognize these rights also!
    Last edited by springfield 1911; 10-14-2010 at 10:34 PM.

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    Very well said, Springfield 1911!

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    If this case continues to go through the legal system, the constitutional right to open carry will be reinforced. No use giving it up. It'll never be given back.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Regular Member JerryD's Avatar
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    you'll have to tell that to the WCCA as well they were pushing permits and still will I believe, as the guy in charge of it now has a business for training people to get other states permits.
    I had to change my signature because you know who got upset about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by springfield 1911 View Post
    Yes it does, After 13 yrs the legislators failed to pass a pp bill and their inability to to do so even after the W.S.S.C told them to do so, I feel it is no longer in our best interest to support a permit system now.
    To do so now would undermine what D.A Fox , Judge Jon Counsell and the other Judges And D.A's in the state whom have dismissed charges because they recognize that we have rights.

    Let us recognize these rights also!
    +1000

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryD View Post
    you'll have to tell that to the WCCA as well they were pushing permits and still will I believe, as the guy in charge of it now has a business for training people to get other states permits.
    Thank you, Jerry, for the acute and timely observation. I believe WCCA has changed its name and not serviced its web site since 2008. I believe that Monkeyleg Baker is now running under a false-flag with protection and personal and safety in the name. But it is still the same old same-ol' cause and effect.

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    Regular Member JerryD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Thank you, Jerry, for the acute and timely observation. I believe WCCA has changed its name and not serviced its web site since 2008. I believe that Monkeyleg Baker is now running under a false-flag with protection and personal and safety in the name. But it is still the same old same-ol' cause and effect.

    Bill Schmitz(?) from Redgranite is running it now I get alerts from time to time on the WCCA alert email blast about his training classes. The last email I received from him about his business(9-5-10) I sent him an email requesting he remove me from any further advertisements for his classes as that was not what I signed up for the alerts to receive.Monkeyleg was on AR15.com quite awhile ago saying resigned from WCCA.
    Last edited by JerryD; 10-15-2010 at 08:26 AM.
    I had to change my signature because you know who got upset about it.

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    ” but notes displaying weapon’s openly isn’t a “realistic alternative.”

    I disagree, I think open carry has it's place just like concealed carry does. There is a time and a place for everything.

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    I think the next legislative session will be receptive to our movement and be supportive of our constitutional right to the choice of weapon carry for personal protection. According to my records the legislative vote of the 2005 Personal Protection Act SB-403 showed the legislature in general supported of conceal carry at a ratio of 2:1. The Assembly approval vote was 64-32. The Senate approval margin was 23-10. The Bill then was vetoed by Doyle and the veto override failed by two votes. Failed by the loss of two turncoat votes. In retrospect we now know the turncoats did us a huge favor. The margin of victory in the combined legislature suggests that the legislature may not be as gun unfriendly as we suppose. Following is a link to the web site that details which Assembly member voted for or against the PPA. It will give an idea on which members of the Assembly require our concentration. The Senate voted to override the veto and I expect it is still personal protection friendly. Of course as a result of elections since 2005 the complextion of the Assembly has changed, but many of the members of 2005 are still there.

    http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2005/data/votes/av0415.pdf

    I am not supporting concealed carry. I support choice of carry. I present this information only as an indication as to which legislators in 2005 were for or against carry of weapons for personal protection.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 10-15-2010 at 10:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryD View Post
    Bill Schmitz(?) from Redgranite is running it now I get alerts from time to time on the WCCA alert email blast about his training classes.
    Instructors like Bill and Deb who have spent a large portion of their lives teaching people how to shoot are obviously going to be biased towards training. So what? Its not some big conspiracy. Mechanics that work on European cars prefer that technology.

    Don't worry. If and when the CC prohibition is repealed at law there will be plenty of poor and ignorant fools without training strapping on guns to satisfy even the biggest anarchist.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 10-15-2010 at 08:57 AM.

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post

    Don't worry. If and when the CC prohibition is repealed at law there will be plenty of poor and ignorant fools without training strapping on guns to satisfy even the biggest anarchist.
    I wish we didn't find freedom so scary.

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    ol platapus never disappoints does he.

    and yes I know it isn't spelled correctly.
    Last edited by JerryD; 10-15-2010 at 09:06 AM.
    I had to change my signature because you know who got upset about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    I wish we didn't find freedom so scary.
    When I was up in Wausau last time with the guys at Culver's there was a Libertarian candidate OCing with us. Apparently he has been carrying for years and doesn't bother casing his gun in vehicles, etc.

    He was saying his goodbyes and for about 5 minutes stood by his truck with his pistol in his hand like it was a cell phone, gesturing with it and pointing it everywhere. This was witnessed by several and he continued to do it even after being spoken to.

    He was a good argument for the need for training...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    When I was up in Wausau last time with the guys at Culver's there was a Libertarian candidate OCing with us. Apparently he has been carrying for years and doesn't bother casing his gun in vehicles, etc.

    He was saying his goodbyes and for about 5 minutes stood by his truck with his pistol in his hand like it was a cell phone, gesturing with it and pointing it everywhere. This was witnessed by several and he continued to do it even after being spoken to.

    He was a good argument for the need for training...
    How do you know he did not go through training, but was simply disregarding it?

    Just Say No to government mandated prerequisites for exercising ones rights

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    How do you know he did not go through training, but was simply disregarding it? Just Say No to government mandated prerequisites for exercising ones rights
    Perhaps as a libertarian he disagrees with this aspect of "training". And without a name and date, it is a red-herring stalking horse and a merely self-serving accusation.

  19. #19
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    i have no formal training, other than what my fellow carriers, and the boyscouts (as a youth) provided me. I did ride on a train once, will that do?

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    I think it would be fair to say that we all would benifit from additional training in everything we do. Riding a bike, driving a car canoeing, swimming etc... To call those of us who believe in "shall not be infringed" anarchists seems a bit extreme. We did not write the 2nd amendment so I am left to wonder if you are in essence calling the founding fathers of this country anarchistst?

    This whole debate of permits and training seems to be touchy subject on this forum. I think it all comes down to interpretation of the 2A. To some shall not be infringed means manditory permits, training etc... all in an effort to make everybody safe.

    To others shall not be infringed means, shall not be infringed, period.

    I don't mean this as an attempt to start trouble or decide who is right, this seems to be the heart of the issue.

    This country is willing to ingnore freedom in an attempt to be politically correct and satisfy everybody. Our founders wanted us to be safe from the government.
    Last edited by johnny amish; 10-15-2010 at 11:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Instructors like Bill and Deb who have spent a large portion of their lives teaching people how to shoot are obviously going to be biased towards training. So what? Its not some big conspiracy. Mechanics that work on European cars prefer that technology.

    Don't worry. If and when the CC prohibition is repealed at law there will be plenty of poor and ignorant fools without training strapping on guns to satisfy even the biggest anarchist.
    Another message brought to you by your friend at WAVE

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i have no formal training, other than what my fellow carriers, and the boyscouts (as a youth) provided me. I did ride on a train once, will that do?
    As I see it you are certified.

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    Regular Member JerryD's Avatar
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    Good for them but at the same time they profited from it as well. I am by no means against making a profit but do not come here trying to play a sympathy card because they have devoted their lives to it when so many others have devoted their lives to the issue as well and not made one red cent from it!
    Last edited by JerryD; 10-15-2010 at 10:04 AM.
    I had to change my signature because you know who got upset about it.

  24. #24
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    training is not "guaranteed" to solve problems or prevent accidents/mistakes.

    Nothing does.

    At the end of the day, all you have as a backstop is accountability.

    You f up, you suffer the consequences.

    You ND, you should be accountable.

    You use your weapon inappropriately you suffer the consequences.

    For far too long in this country we've gotten away from accountability and tried all this "preventative" legislation that takes the focus off of consequences and puts the focus on regulations.

    When (most) people drink and drive, they don't worry about crashing their car, they worry about getting a DUI. They are focused on the regulations, not on consequences.

    Drivers Ed doesn't make people good drivers. It just gets them to pass their state drivers test. Everyone with a license passed a drivers test, and I don't think I'll find ANYONE who disagrees that there are millions of idiots on the road that sure as hell aren't safe drivers.

    Training doesn't teach responsibility and accountability. Consequences do.

    Without responsibility and accountability training won't help you. It won't change you. You won't adopt it into your existence.

    Government regulations don't teach you responsibility and accountability either. In fact, they distract you from it. If you really want people to learn and better themselves, you remove the regulations and penalize the consequences and hold people accountable. In turn, people will adopt responsibility and accountability and THEN embrace a lifestyle/mentality of continuous self-improvement because they have a self-preserving, self-benefiting motivation to do so.

    edited to add

    Mandatory training will not prevent accidents or problems. Mandatory training is far less likely to improve a person than voluntary training.

    Responsible people who take accountability for their actions will do what they need to do to keep themselves from negative consequences. (that may mean formal or informal voluntary training and practice) They don't need a government requirement to do so.

    Those who need a government mandate to get training won't adopt the training as part of their existence/behaviors because they didn't get training to change their behavior, they got training to satisfy a government mandate.

    I won't pound the training drum. I will pound the message of accountability and consequences. That will lead many to training.
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 10-15-2010 at 12:01 PM.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    training is not "guaranteed" to solve problems or prevent accidents/mistakes.

    Nothing does.

    At the end of the day, all you have as a backstop is accountability.

    You f up, you suffer the consequences.

    You ND, you should be accountable.

    You use your weapon inappropriately you suffer the consequences.

    For far too long in this country we've gotten away from accountability and tried all this "preventative" legislation that takes the focus off of consequences and puts the focus on regulations.

    When (most) people drink and drive, they don't worry about crashing their car, they worry about getting a DUI. They are focused on the regulations, not on consequences.

    Drivers Ed doesn't make people good drivers. It just gets them to pass their state drivers test. Everyone with a license passed a drivers test, and I don't think I'll find ANYONE who disagrees that there are millions of idiots on the road that sure as hell aren't safe drivers.

    Training doesn't teach responsibility and accountability. Consequences do.

    Without responsibility and accountability training won't help you. It won't change you. You won't adopt it into your existence.

    Government regulations don't teach you responsibility and accountability either. In fact, they distract you from it. If you really want people to learn and better themselves, you remove the regulations and penalize the consequences and hold people accountable. In turn, people will adopt responsibility and accountability and THEN embrace a lifestyle/mentality of continuous self-improvement because they have a self-preserving, self-benefiting motivation to do so.
    +10000

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