Judge rules concealed carry ban unconstitutional(Clark County Wisconsin)

Spartacus said:

Instructors like Bill and Deb who have spent a large portion of their lives teaching people how to shoot are obviously going to be biased towards training. So what? Its not some big conspiracy. Mechanics that work on European cars prefer that technology.

Don't worry. If and when the CC prohibition is repealed at law there will be plenty of poor and ignorant fools without training strapping on guns to satisfy even the biggest anarchist.

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Another message brought to you by your friend at WAVE

McX said:

i have no formal training, other than what my fellow carriers, and the boyscouts (as a youth) provided me. I did ride on a train once, will that do?

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As I see it you are certified.

Good for them but at the same time they profited from it as well. I am by no means against making a profit but do not come here trying to play a sympathy card because they have devoted their lives to it when so many others have devoted their lives to the issue as well and not made one red cent from it!

training is not "guaranteed" to solve problems or prevent accidents/mistakes.

Nothing does.

At the end of the day, all you have as a backstop is accountability.

You f up, you suffer the consequences.

You ND, you should be accountable.

You use your weapon inappropriately you suffer the consequences.

For far too long in this country we've gotten away from accountability and tried all this "preventative" legislation that takes the focus off of consequences and puts the focus on regulations.

When (most) people drink and drive, they don't worry about crashing their car, they worry about getting a DUI. They are focused on the regulations, not on consequences.

Drivers Ed doesn't make people good drivers. It just gets them to pass their state drivers test. Everyone with a license passed a drivers test, and I don't think I'll find ANYONE who disagrees that there are millions of idiots on the road that sure as hell aren't safe drivers.

Training doesn't teach responsibility and accountability. Consequences do.

Without responsibility and accountability training won't help you. It won't change you. You won't adopt it into your existence.

Government regulations don't teach you responsibility and accountability either. In fact, they distract you from it. If you really want people to learn and better themselves, you remove the regulations and penalize the consequences and hold people accountable. In turn, people will adopt responsibility and accountability and THEN embrace a lifestyle/mentality of continuous self-improvement because they have a self-preserving, self-benefiting motivation to do so.

edited to add

Mandatory training will not prevent accidents or problems. Mandatory training is far less likely to improve a person than voluntary training.

Responsible people who take accountability for their actions will do what they need to do to keep themselves from negative consequences. (that may mean formal or informal voluntary training and practice) They don't need a government requirement to do so.

Those who need a government mandate to get training won't adopt the training as part of their existence/behaviors because they didn't get training to change their behavior, they got training to satisfy a government mandate.

I won't pound the training drum. I will pound the message of accountability and consequences. That will lead many to training.

Wisconsin Carry said:

training is not "guaranteed" to solve problems or prevent accidents/mistakes.

Nothing does.

At the end of the day, all you have as a backstop is accountability.

You f up, you suffer the consequences.

You ND, you should be accountable.

You use your weapon inappropriately you suffer the consequences.

For far too long in this country we've gotten away from accountability and tried all this "preventative" legislation that takes the focus off of consequences and puts the focus on regulations.

When (most) people drink and drive, they don't worry about crashing their car, they worry about getting a DUI. They are focused on the regulations, not on consequences.

Drivers Ed doesn't make people good drivers. It just gets them to pass their state drivers test. Everyone with a license passed a drivers test, and I don't think I'll find ANYONE who disagrees that there are millions of idiots on the road that sure as hell aren't safe drivers.

Training doesn't teach responsibility and accountability. Consequences do.

Without responsibility and accountability training won't help you. It won't change you. You won't adopt it into your existence.

Government regulations don't teach you responsibility and accountability either. In fact, they distract you from it. If you really want people to learn and better themselves, you remove the regulations and penalize the consequences and hold people accountable. In turn, people will adopt responsibility and accountability and THEN embrace a lifestyle/mentality of continuous self-improvement because they have a self-preserving, self-benefiting motivation to do so.

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+10000

Doug Huffman said:

Perhaps as a libertarian he disagrees with this aspect of "training". And without a name and date, it is a red-herring stalking horse and a merely self-serving accusation.

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His name is Jim Mass and he is in the pictures with us at Fred's latest meet-up in Wausau at Culvers. He the middle man with the white cap on in the group photo here:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?81470-Wausau-Area-Meet-amp-Greet

Specific enough for you?

Here's a link to the ruling itself:

http://www.wisconsinappeals.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Schultz1.pdf

TFred

Wisconsin Carry said:

training is not "guaranteed" to solve problems or prevent accidents/mistakes.

Nothing does.

At the end of the day, all you have as a backstop is accountability.

You f up, you suffer the consequences.

You ND, you should be accountable.

You use your weapon inappropriately you suffer the consequences.

For far too long in this country we've gotten away from accountability and tried all this "preventative" legislation that takes the focus off of consequences and puts the focus on regulations.

When (most) people drink and drive, they don't worry about crashing their car, they worry about getting a DUI. They are focused on the regulations, not on consequences.

Drivers Ed doesn't make people good drivers. It just gets them to pass their state drivers test. Everyone with a license passed a drivers test, and I don't think I'll find ANYONE who disagrees that there are millions of idiots on the road that sure as hell aren't safe drivers.

Training doesn't teach responsibility and accountability. Consequences do.

Without responsibility and accountability training won't help you. It won't change you. You won't adopt it into your existence.

Government regulations don't teach you responsibility and accountability either. In fact, they distract you from it. If you really want people to learn and better themselves, you remove the regulations and penalize the consequences and hold people accountable. In turn, people will adopt responsibility and accountability and THEN embrace a lifestyle/mentality of continuous self-improvement because they have a self-preserving, self-benefiting motivation to do so.

edited to add

Mandatory training will not prevent accidents or problems. Mandatory training is far less likely to improve a person than voluntary training.

Responsible people who take accountability for their actions will do what they need to do to keep themselves from negative consequences. (that may mean formal or informal voluntary training and practice) They don't need a government requirement to do so.

Those who need a government mandate to get training won't adopt the training as part of their existence/behaviors because they didn't get training to change their behavior, they got training to satisfy a government mandate.

I won't pound the training drum. I will pound the message of accountability and consequences. That will lead many to training.

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+10000! especially the bolded part.

Training is great, but should be up to the individual. Mandated training leads to a whole host of problems (aside from the whole "infringe" issue).

johnny amish said:

As I see it you are certified.

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indeed, better than certifiable heh-heh.

Training is great, but should be up to the individual. Mandated training leads to a whole host of problems (aside from the whole "infringe" issue).

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Training (formal or informal) is great for people who recognize they could use training.

To quote Donald Rumsfeld "There are things we know we know, things we know we don't know, and things we don't know we don't know"

When you "don't know what you don't know" someone telling you "get training" isn't going to matter.

But if you can make the consequences of actions real to people, they'll start to 'know what they don't know' instead of not knowing what they don't know.

You have to want to learn before you can learn. I cite Milwaukee Public Schools as my proof.

Wisconsin Carry said:

Training (formal or informal) is great for people who recognize they could use training.

To quote Donald Rumsfeld "There are things we know we know, things we know we don't know, and things we don't know we don't know"

When you "don't know what you don't know" someone telling you "get training" isn't going to matter.

But if you can make the consequences of actions real to people, they'll start to 'know what they don't know' instead of not knowing what they don't know.

You have to want to learn before you can learn. I cite Milwaukee Public Schools as my proof.

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I think you were most agreeing with me, but clarifying...is that correct?

Regardless, I agree with what you said, "you have to have to learn before you can learn*"...it's sorta like this - you can put an alcoholic in rehab as many times as you want, but until the alcoholic WANTS to stop drinking, all the rehab in the world isn't going to do any good whatsoever.

*I'd assumed that was implied where I said it should be up to the individual...I should have been clearer, though.

The Don said:

I think you were most agreeing with me, but clarifying...is that correct?

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Yes.

I think training is good (though I think paid training is just one options of dozens, many other suitable and perhaps more suitable options, that depends on the person)

I have had only 1 "paid training" class in my life, but I grew up in a gun owning family. My firearm safety training started when I was 7 or 8 and continues to this day.

We won't get people to get training by saying "training good, get it"

We might get people to get training (paid training or other types) by talking about the consequences of actions.

GOVERNMENT can help by not distracting people to focus on fulfilling mandates and instead focus on holding people accountable for the consequences of their actions. That goes for things far beyond just mandatory firearms training but to most aspects of law.

ULTIMATELY we are responsible for only ourselves and other people getting training or not getting training is their business not mine.

As a resource WCI is developing a training page (though I think we definitely won't call it training) that will contain a variety of resources for people who seek knowledge and self-improvement. That is going to be part of a larger website redesign that we are undertaking and is months away from happening.

I read through the ruling. It's not terrible, but it seems to have been put together quickly, at least two or three editorial typos. This judge clearly "gets it", which is obviously why the HuffPo is so steamed.

The ruling is not particularly OC friendly, but some of that is due to the cites from the 2003 case: State v. Hamdan, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 463 (2003).

TFred

Wisconsin Carry said:

ULTIMATELY we are responsible for only ourselves and other people getting training or not getting training is their business not mine.

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+1000. This country needs a good lesson in MYOB 101. Sometimes I feel like we would rather live equally in slavery than unequally in freedom.

Wisconsin Carry said:

Yes.

I think training is good (though I think paid training is just one options of dozens, many other suitable and perhaps more suitable options, that depends on the person)

I have had only 1 "paid training" class in my life, but I grew up in a gun owning family. My firearm safety training started when I was 7 or 8 and continues to this day.

We won't get people to get training by saying "training good, get it"

We might get people to get training (paid training or other types) by talking about the consequences of actions.

GOVERNMENT can help by not distracting people to focus on fulfilling mandates and instead focus on holding people accountable for the consequences of their actions. That goes for things far beyond just mandatory firearms training but to most aspects of law.

ULTIMATELY we are responsible for only ourselves and other people getting training or not getting training is their business not mine.

As a resource WCI is developing a training page (though I think we definitely won't call it training) that will contain a variety of resources for people who seek knowledge and self-improvement. That is going to be part of a larger website redesign that we are undertaking and is months away from happening.

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thanks for clarifying.

If it is appealed...

If it's appealed, let's hope that it bypasses the court of appeals like what happened with Hamdan and Cole

Please stop the name calling! Argue your points with respect , it goes alot further to stay on topic than to beat the battle drum of insults and disrespect. We all share a place here and most of us don't want **** where we eat, sleep or whatever you get what i mean.

Thank You.

Frank

Hit their POLL

http://www.weau.com/

Halfway down, LEFT column

done-ski

WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT 85% VOTED YES HMMMM (sarcastically speaking)