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Thread: Huffington Post in regards to Judge Jon M. Counsell

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    Regular Member Rbwhanson's Avatar
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    Huffington Post in regards to Judge Jon M. Counsell

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-s..._b_764075.html


    FTA:

    Wisconsin, home to John Kerry's beloved Lambert Field, is also one of two states in America that bans the carrying of concealed weapons (the other is Illinois).

    This week Wisconsin Circuit Court Judge Jon M. Counsell issued an opinion overturning the state's ban on concealed carry that challenges Senator Kerry's infamous gaffe for uninformed audacity.

    Drawing supposed authority from the U.S. Supreme Court's Heller and McDonald decisions--which found only a Second Amendment right to keep a handgun in the home for self-protection--Counsell ruled that the state's ban on carrying concealed handguns in public was overly broad and therefore unconstitutional.

    Why do you need to carry a handgun in the Badger State? One answer is apparently bears and cougars. In his opinion Counsell frets that the ban on concealed carry, "Prohibits the logger, hiker, cross country skier and other outdoors person from keeping his weapon out of plain sight, but available, in the event of a wolf, bear or other wild animal attack." This statement is then trailed by the following footnote citing Wikipedia. And no, I am not making this up.

    For fatal cougar attacks, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._North_America.
    For fatal cougar attacks, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._North_America .
    For a recent bear attack in our neighbor state of Michigan, see http://www.petoskeynews.com/news/pnr...,5853596.story.


    What's worse? Citing Wikipedia links in your, and let's remember this--actual court decision--or, as evidenced by Counsell's citing "cougar attacks" twice in the text at the expense of "bear attack," not even bothering to cite them accurately.

    Counsell then goes on to offer the following absolute statement:

    Despite the varying concealed carry laws allowing "ordinary" citizens to carry concealed weapons in 48 States, there have been no shootouts in town squares, no mass vigilante shootings, or other violent outbreaks attributable to allowed concealed carry.
    Now, I haven't gone to the Google machine to check Wikipedia recently (at least until this week), but my organization, the Violence Policy Center, has been tracking--through news reports, since such information is secret in virtually all CCW states--just these types of killings by concealed handgun permit holders as part of our Concealed Carry Killers project.

    According to Concealed Carry Killers' September update, since May 2007 concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least 202 individuals. And no, they aren't good guys killing criminals in the name of truth, justice, and the American way. Of the 122 incidents in 27 states that resulted in the 202 deaths, in more than half (66 incidents) the concealed handgun permit holder has already been convicted, committed suicide after the incident, or was killed in the incident. Of the 56 cases still pending, the vast majority (46) of concealed handgun permit holders have been charged with criminal homicide, two were deemed incompetent to stand trial, two incidents were unintentional shootings, and six incidents are still under investigation.

    And where do these killings occur? The exact places Judge Counsell so confidently promises they never do: parking lots, roadways, businesses, homes, and numerous others. And the "mass vigilante shootings" Judge Counsell tells us never occur? Well, the September Concealed Carry Killers update tallies at least 16 mass shootings (three or more victims) committed by concealed handgun permit holders claiming the lives of 65 victims. This doesn't include a CCW mass shooting that we've only recently confirmed: the August 2010 attack at a Connecticut beer distributor in which concealed handgun permit holder Omar Thornton used his Ruger pistol in the murder of eight of his co-workers before taking his own life.

    According to Judge Counsell's favored reference source, judicial activism is described as a:

    judicial ruling suspected of being based on personal or political considerations rather than on existing law.
    But I guess in Judge Counsell's case, it's not really necessary to bother checking Wikipedia to answer that question.





    HP never ceases to make me roll my eyes.....
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    I sure hope WI doesn't allow CCW so we can maintain our status as a state without gun violence.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    I sure hope WI doesn't allow CCW so we can maintain our status as a state without gun violence.
    My sarcasm meter is broken...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    My sarcasm meter is broken...
    It must be. I got it. Because obviously we have NO gun violence now......
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    If all these anti's really want to save lives why don't they want to ban cars?

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    Baby steps, cigarettes first. Then high fructose corn syrup. Edison lamps are all but gone and effective flush toilets are on the blackmarket.

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    Regular Member Canard's Avatar
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    Proof this article is worthless

    Here are some quick contrived statics based on these “murdering rates” of CCW holders.
    *
    First, some numbers
    202 murders by CCW holders during this time period
    5,000,000 permit holders according to http://www.legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
    *************** (this is missing many states included constitutional carry so this number is very low)
    25,000 – number of murders overall during this time period
    245,267,292 US population over 14 yrs old per 2009 US Census
    *
    .00404% of CCW holders commit murder
    .01019% of the general population commits murder
    .0104% of non-permit holders commit murder
    These assume 1 murderer per murder which is not correct but will get us a general idea.
    *
    According to these stats the general population is 2.5 times more likely to commit murder than a ccw permit holder
    Sooo…..this data suggest issuing more permits will reduce the murder rate
    Orrrr…..people who don’t have a ccw permit are more likely to commit murder the than general population. Hmmmmm

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    Math is fun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Canard View Post
    Here are some quick contrived statics based on these “murdering rates” of CCW holders.
    *
    First, some numbers
    202 murders by CCW holders during this time period
    5,000,000 permit holders according to http://www.legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
    *************** (this is missing many states included constitutional carry so this number is very low)
    25,000 – number of murders overall during this time period
    245,267,292 US population over 14 yrs old per 2009 US Census
    *
    .00404% of CCW holders commit murder
    .01019% of the general population commits murder
    .0104% of non-permit holders commit murder
    These assume 1 murderer per murder which is not correct but will get us a general idea.
    *
    According to these stats the general population is 2.5 times more likely to commit murder than a ccw permit holder
    Sooo…..this data suggest issuing more permits will reduce the murder rate
    Orrrr…..people who don’t have a ccw permit are more likely to commit murder the than general population. Hmmmmm
    thanks for putting that together.

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canard View Post
    According to these stats the general population is 2.5 times more likely to commit murder than a ccw permit holder
    Sooo…..this data suggest issuing more permits will reduce the murder rate
    Orrrr…..people who don’t have a ccw permit are more likely to commit murder the than general population. Hmmmmm
    Geeez, now what are we supose to think? Are we the good guy, or the bad guy?

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    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Blah blah blah - if you take anything seriously out of the Huffington Post then you're probably a fan of Hilary Clinton's farts as well.

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    Regular Member ayce2's Avatar
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    Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    Geeez, now what are we supose to think? Are we the good guy, or the bad guy?
    reminds me of an old joke... asked of an accountant ' WHAT IS 2+2?" Close the door , pull the shade "What do you need it to be?"

    We are what we are, no matter what others think. Without meeting personally anyone on this blog I have a good idea who you are by what you post. I believe that all who post regularly I respect, wether I like the majority of their posts or not. There is a certain honesty in who they are. I also appreciate the calmer tone of the last days.

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    It must be. I got it. Because obviously we have NO gun violence now......
    Right on, my friend.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    No one reads the Huffington Post anyway.

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anmut View Post
    Blah blah blah - if you take anything seriously out of the Huffington Post then you're probably a fan of Hilary Clinton's farts as well.
    That Silverman guy that wrote the article is executive director of the Violence Policy Center, a tenticle of the Joyce Foundation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Policy_Center

    The Joyce Foundation considers Wisconsin to be Chicago's northern providence, and as such has spent a lot of money trying to get Chicago styled gun laws inflicited on Wisconsin citizens.

    Little suprise then that a big time Washington DC lobbyist would be concerned about a court case in a small Wisconsin county. They are starting to be become afraid....
    Last edited by Flipper; 10-15-2010 at 11:25 PM.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Regular Member Krusty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    I sure hope WI doesn't allow CCW so we can maintain our status as a state without gun violence.
    It must be all those OC'ers causing the crime rate to dwindle to nothing.
    IF YOU WANT TO BURN OUR AMERICAN FLAG, PLEASE WRAP YOURSELF UP IN IT FIRST...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    That Silverman guy that wrote the article is executive director of the Violence Policy Center, a tenticle[sic] of the Joyce Foundation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman
    That Silverman guy that wrote the article is ..., a testicle of the Joyce Foundation.
    There, fixed it for ya, the spelling 'error'.

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    What an utter disgrace! A Judge citing WIKI? How (IMHO) STUPID! There is hardly any corroborating information there to support any facts, WIKI is a conglomeration of compiled info, unsupported by ANY individual who wishes to post, moderated by anyone who refutes it's truth.
    If you use WIKI as a credible source of information, you're lazy, uneducated and wrong!
    All be it useful as a GUIDE nothing more.
    The Judges opinion wrote with the information cited from WIKI should be thrashed, he should be hanging his head in shame, what a dis-service (his references using WIKI) to the 2A.
    I wana PUKE anytime I see an individual use WIKI it literally turns my stomach!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Baby steps, cigarettes first. Then high fructose corn syrup. Edison lamps are all but gone and effective flush toilets are on the blackmarket.
    Had a good laugh at this one, I'd better stock another toilet then!

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    I don't think that you can buy a NEW full-flush toilet any more.

    When I bought my 30 y.o. home I was very concerned that it has an Ifö, an early European low volume commode. As it turns out, the Ifö has handled anything that I've been able to put in it.

    We added a half-bath and I tried to get another one but discovered that models like I have are out of production, quite expensive, and use an European off-set from the wall and not the American off-set. So I bought a bunch of spare parts and a stupid modern American no-flush for the little 'powder room'.

    Many Islanders have real toilets stashed away. I just saw a NY news article of NYC mandating dual-flush toilets, with 1/2 gallon No. 1 flushes and one gallon No. 2 flushes. We use the "If it's yellow it's mellow" rule to minimize having our holding tank pumped (like on a boat or RV but 2k gallons/$100). And a hot tub, rather than a bath-tub, that I can drain to the yard and not to the holding tank.

    I'm trying to halve our water+sewer bill, from $600/year ($100 pump-out/60 days). And I horde Edison lightbulbs.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 10-16-2010 at 08:04 AM.

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    Regular Member Canard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qball54208 View Post
    What an utter disgrace! A Judge citing WIKI? How (IMHO) STUPID! There is hardly any corroborating information there to support any facts, WIKI is a conglomeration of compiled info, unsupported by ANY individual who wishes to post, moderated by anyone who refutes it's truth.
    If you use WIKI as a credible source of information, you're lazy, uneducated and wrong!
    All be it useful as a GUIDE nothing more.
    The Judges opinion wrote with the information cited from WIKI should be thrashed, he should be hanging his head in shame, what a dis-service (his references using WIKI) to the 2A.
    I wana PUKE anytime I see an individual use WIKI it literally turns my stomach!
    I generally agree with you on the Wiki thing but if you do your research while reading Wiki you can determine if the particular subject matter is valid or not. For example, if you Wiki concealed carry every fact is footnoted and verifiable. One would hope when reading a wiki page that the footnotes ae reviewed as being valid, I know I do. I do find many an interesting wiki page without references that seems right but I just can't trust without the backup.

    To the point that this judge used wiki is definitely disappointing. Certainly his reference could already be invalid should someone have updated anything on those pages. He should have reviewed the references noted in the page and noted those in his paper should they have been legitimate.

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    What better compendium of news of the day? That the Wiki may evolve from day to day does not alter its significance to Judge Counsell's opinion.

    If its evolution is of concern, as is common with any and all not-printed resources, then one notes, "URL retrieved XX day, YY month, ZZZZ year. On-line resources and their citation have been incorporated into all style manuals that I've looked at recently.

    Believe nothing that your read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting world view.

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    Regular Member Canard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post

    Believe nothing that your read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting world view.
    This I do find amusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qball54208 View Post
    What an utter disgrace! A Judge citing WIKI? How (IMHO) STUPID! There is hardly any corroborating information there to support any facts, WIKI is a conglomeration of compiled info, unsupported by ANY individual who wishes to post, moderated by anyone who refutes it's truth.
    If you use WIKI as a credible source of information, you're lazy, uneducated and wrong!
    All be it useful as a GUIDE nothing more.
    The Judges opinion wrote with the information cited from WIKI should be thrashed, he should be hanging his head in shame, what a dis-service (his references using WIKI) to the 2A.
    I wana PUKE anytime I see an individual use WIKI it literally turns my stomach!
    Are you kidding? Your just being sarcastic here right?
    There are many highly intelligent people in this world that use Wiki as a quick reference guide. Those that use it understand it's purpose. Those that make statements such as yours above are clueless to the usefulness of the Wikipedia.
    Your theory, if you don't understand something, then just bash it to pieces.
    Sounds like a method of thinking that was used before the Wikipedia was invented. Like thousands of years before.

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    There, fixed it for ya, the spelling 'error'.
    That's what I was going to say but didn't have the balls to do so. Hope you had your key board covered when you read the Huffington Post puke.


    Quote:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...35#post1372635
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    That's what I was going to say but didn't have the balls to do so. Hope you had your key board covered when you read the Huffington Post puke.
    I did not. Like Chairman, I am careful of what I read, hear and respond.

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