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Thread: New Park Rule.

  1. #1
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    New Park Rule.

    I know that an apartment or trailer park can prohibit OC, but I think they are trying to keep me from OCboth in my home, and on my lot, can they do that? I found a memo on the door today, a common thing for management to place these on the residences doors, which read in part, :

    Resident's tenancy will be terminated if resident, a member of residents household or guest under residents control, whether in the home, on the site or anywhere within the community, engages in or allows any of the following activity: threatening or intimidating assault, brandishing or display of firearms or other weapons, games of chance or any other activity which jeopardizes the health, safety and welfare of other residents, members of their households and guests, or any member of managements staff, or which involves imminent, serious property damage. A single violation of the above provisions shall be a material and irreparable violation of the lease and will result in termination of the tenancy.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-15-2010 at 11:17 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    they can't say anything about what you do in your own home but yes, imo if they see you doing that outside your home you may very well be screwed.

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    IMO, they cannot tell me I can't OC on my lot either. I have to be able to carry to my car when coming and going for instance. And I believe I have the right to be in my yard as well, I'm paying for that.

    I left a message with Dean Greenblatt, and sent an Email to a friend that I have on the OCSD, but its Friday, and so I don't expect to hear anything until next week.

  4. #4
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    Do you have a lease? A lease is a contract. Unless it contains specific language allowing unilateral modification of the terms, then any changes to the rules are irrelevant. They can change them upon the next lease renewal, but not until then.

    Seriously: read your lease.

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    I believe its month to month, I'll double check.

    I have also contacted my state rep, she has been a big help to me in the past.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-16-2010 at 03:32 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    I found this http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...ntlandlord.pdf
    Q5:

    What other provisions can be can be included in the lease: Answer” As long as the clause does not violates federal, state, local laws or regulations, the parties can agree to almost anything….

    From this point it goes on to explain if you had a blue car and the leaseor did not want a blue car there, you both could "agree" that during your lease you would not own a blue car, then they give a couple examples as pets and smoking.


    I suggest first look at your current lease. See on your lease you SIGNED if you agreed to the restriction of weapons as listed in the flyer you received.

    I noticed that the flyer does not say you cannot own or have a firearm, this I think would be a violation of federal law and state law, but it also said you cannot threaten or intimidating assault, brandishing or display of firearms or other weapons basically on their property, or in your own home including your rented lot from what I gather.

    Since the Display of firearms is what is at queston: Does current federal or state law allow citizens to “display” a firearm. One defination of display is expose: to show, make visible or apparent.

    So now we go to your lease: Did you agree to that when you signed your lease? If no, then they can not enforce the display part because you two did not agree to it and they can not change the current contract you two have without your consent. But they could also not renew your lease and require you to leave once your current lease is up. My understanding if you are on a years lease and it expires you then go to month to month, your original lease applyies until you sign a new one.

    second question would be do we have the right under federal or state law to DISPLAY a weapon. If there is written law that details how one can "display" a weapon then they might not be able restrict such activity.

    AFTER THOUGHT: I rented in a mobile home park in the 70's and I remember there being a provision in my lease that I would follow "park rules". The rules themself was not in the lease but were displayed in the managers office and a copy given to me at the time I rented. (a) check to see if such a provision to follow park rules is in your lease; if not thats one thing less to worry about, if so (b) see if the display rule is on the current list of park rules; grab a copy for youself, take a picture what ever you need to do to get a copy (c) if yes, you will need to see if the display rule was on the park rules list when you SIGNED the lease, hopefully you got a copy when you moved in and you still have that copy.

    I have to add I am no lawyer and I have not rented in over 30 years. I could be wrong on part of this or all of it, But this is just my take on the matter


    good luck
    Last edited by Onnie; 10-16-2010 at 04:50 PM. Reason: broken link
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    A smart person would try to be a little more "aerodynamic" for a while and make less waves....a SMART person would anyway....

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    ask them to define 'brandishing' - mich law says holstered weapon isn't brandishing and the trailer park is in michigan under the same laws.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    ask them to define 'brandishing' - mich law says holstered weapon isn't brandishing and the trailer park is in michigan under the same laws.
    or keep shetting where you eat and get kicked out of your home.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    I read the tenant and landlord, a practical guide put out by the state of michigan a little more today, what the note seems to be refering to as the reason for the change is the phrase:

    "activity which jeopardizes the health, safety and welfare of other residents, members of their households and guests, or any member of managements staff, or which involves imminent, serious property damage"

    According to the note the displaying of a weapon is now or has been against park regulatons.

    (a) was it a park regulation upon signing of the lease. if so you can go no further since you agreed to it upon the signing of the lease (unless it violates state or federal laws)

    (b) if not, according to this guide the management must give tenants a 30 day notice for changes that are for the health, safety and welfare of other residents, members of their households and guests, or any member of managements staff, or which involves imminent, serious property damage, but ONLY IF THERE IS A CLAUSE IN THE LEASE ALLOWS FOR SUCH CHANGES BY MANAGEMENT. (question 3, line 12)

    (c) is such action by the management violating state or federal laws, IF YES then the change is not enforceable.

    but, bucking the parks "rules" right or wrong, may have you looking for a new place to reside sooner than later. They have the right NOT to continue your lease when it expires next be it a year lease or on a month to month for any reason they choose.
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
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    Bersa 380 Thunder Plus
    Hi point C9 9mm
    Chiappa 1911-22 Semi-Auto .22 LR

    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    (c) is such action by the management violating state or federal laws, IF YES then the change is not enforceable.
    What about the state constitution, and the fact that OC is legal because it isn't illegal?

    I'm not trying to sneak around some rule here, I just want to be able to wash my car, cut my grass, or whatever in peace and safety. I keep my summer car in a storage unit a mile away from the park and walk in and out to get it, because this park is unfit to keep a decent car in it. I need to be able to OC at least during the summer months in order to go get my car. Nobody wants to wear layers of clothing to CC in summer, and those who know me, know that I do not conceal.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    I remember the first park i lived in did not allow motorcycles, I had to keep mine at my parents house. Motorcycles are legal, I am allowed by law to have and drive one one, but they still did not allow them in the park. If i brought it there, i would be evicted from the park. There is no law i know of that says i have a constitutional right to keep my motorcycle on my rented property.

    I think this is why in the note they do not say you CAN NOT have a weapon in your home, you just cant display one. Telling you that you can not own one or keep one in your home I think would be against the 2A and Michigan constitution. I dont know what they mean by display? Hanging on your wall? Since they do not go into any more detail on thier definition of "display", I will have to assume they mean making your weapon visable to another person inside or outside of your home, basically anywhere on the parks property.

    Question is: is this rule against your 2A rights or the constitution of the state of michigan, if so it makes that part of the contract void and null. While we have the right to own, possess and carry weapons, you are well aware we can OC becasue there is NO MICHIGAN LAW against it. So by defult its legal. (my interpetation of OCing)

    But you may have entered into an agreement with the management company, unbeknown to you that restricts you from "displaying" a weapon. As long as there is no direct law that says you have a legal right to display a weapon on rented property, they may add that to a contract prior to your signing it according to the guide i refered to earlier and after the contract was signed with your approval.

    reguardless if when you signed the contract and if this rule exists or not, if you "display" your weapon by OCing in "THEIR" park, you can be assured they will send you a notice to vacate. Once your lease is up, they have no legal obgilation to allow you to stay.

    Apparently you were singled out for OCing, which means someone complained. Unless you know EVERYBODY got one attached to their door as well, you now know they are watching you.

    I would get your contract, read it all. Find the park rules for when you signed the contract and what they have now.

    CC if you need to carry in the park. and talk to the lawyer. he would know more than I.

    If you or your lawyer can find law that says this action is aginst your civil, legal or constitutional rights you might get that part of the park rules changed but You can also be certain, any resitance by you could lead you being asked to move reguardless of the out come when you current contract expires.

    I wish you good luck on this one, but reguardless of the out come, I dont see you OCing there without problems with the park

    again, this is my opinion and please note While i always wanted to play a lawyer on TV I am not one!
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
    American Tactical Imports C45 45 AP
    S&W sigma 40 Cal
    Bersa 380 Thunder Plus
    Hi point C9 9mm
    Chiappa 1911-22 Semi-Auto .22 LR

    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Do you have a lease? A lease is a contract. Unless it contains specific language allowing unilateral modification of the terms, then any changes to the rules are irrelevant. They can change them upon the next lease renewal, but not until then.

    Seriously: read your lease.
    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    A smart person would try to be a little more "aerodynamic" for a while and make less waves....a SMART person would anyway....
    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    ask them to define 'brandishing' - mich law says holstered weapon isn't brandishing and the trailer park is in michigan under the same laws.
    Since it bans "Display", I think the "define 'brandishing'" angle is irrelevant. I firmly agree with both KBCraig and dougwg... but without the jab
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    This is Lawyer material.

    I remember there was a ban on guns in public housing and it was defeated. They can not ban a right by a lease, sorry of people disagree on this I am a landlord of multiple housing units and I can ban pets but not guns. There has to be some merit legally on bans. Oh and for the blue car analogy wrong again. I can't ban a blue car no more than I can say he can't date a red head. There are countless case laws on homeowners associations and management landlords making unreasonable demands in leases and all were defeated.

    Any ban must be reasonable in nature and not arbitrary. I would take this to an attorney.

    One more note: Pet bans can be made based on safety concerns aka Dog attacks on children/adults, damage done to homes from pets, pets soiling floors which costs me tons of money to repair, and a few other things I am failing to remember at this point. I had one moron when she knew I had a no pet policy smuggle a full grown Labrador retriever in her home and never let it outside to go bathroom and it cost me $9400 to have all the carpeting and FLOORS replaced as the urine soaked into the OSB board below the sub floors and had to be replaced.

    Anyways back to the ban in your home, I think would be illegal, and on your lot may be also and only a sharp lawyer would be of help here. The wording of the dangers and brandishing could be defeated in court as no holstered firearms is brandishing, and far less dangerous that the average idiot behind the wheel of a car in their trailer park. I remember two incidents where poor judgment caused a car to destroy a mobile home.

    Good luck on this one. This is one reason why I will never live in a Mobile home park.



    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I know that an apartment or trailer park can prohibit OC, but I think they are trying to keep me from OCboth in my home, and on my lot, can they do that? I found a memo on the door today, a common thing for management to place these on the residences doors, which read in part, :

    Resident's tenancy will be terminated if resident, a member of residents household or guest under residents control, whether in the home, on the site or anywhere within the community, engages in or allows any of the following activity: threatening or intimidating assault, brandishing or display of firearms or other weapons, games of chance or any other activity which jeopardizes the health, safety and welfare of other residents, members of their households and guests, or any member of managements staff, or which involves imminent, serious property damage. A single violation of the above provisions shall be a material and irreparable violation of the lease and will result in termination of the tenancy.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Either way..., McDonald v. Chicago holds that they can not Prevent the Lawful Possession of Firearms in your Home.
    As for the Lease, I would suggest you review Michigan Tenant-LandLord Laws, per ACT 348 of 1972 (554.601-554.616).

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    how do you not know your lease agreement????????????

    and seriously dont stir **** when it could imply you being kicked out of your trailer
    think man.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Apparently this guide is written by the faculity and studens of the Rental Housing Clinic at Michigan state University-detroit college of law

    it also states, Owners of Mobile home parks, owners of mobile homes who rent spaces in the parks and renters of mobile homes may have additional rights. For more information, Please contact the building division of the michigan department of consumer and industry services at 517 241 9347
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
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    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

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    Wrong. On my phone so I don't have cite handy, but the .gov cannot force you to give up a right in order for you to receive govt benefit. This does not apply to private property owners, only the government
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    I am NOT from Michigan BUT....

    The simple OPEN CARRY OF A HOLSTERED FIREARM, IMO, does not meet the legal criteria for either "DISPLAY" or "BRANDISHING" based upon the dictionary definitions which would apply in a legal setting UNLESS such terms are defined in MICHIGAN LAW to be otherwise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    I am NOT from Michigan BUT....

    The simple OPEN CARRY OF A HOLSTERED FIREARM, IMO, does not meet the legal criteria for either "DISPLAY" or "BRANDISHING" based upon the dictionary definitions which would apply in a legal setting UNLESS such terms are defined in MICHIGAN LAW to be otherwise!

    cite the definition of display for us according to michigan law.

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    I would like to see the cite for display as well.

    Beerme, the only reason I don't know the exact wording on the lease, is because I moved in here 10 years ago, and at the time, being my first home, and young, I left those things up to my parents. I asked my mom tonight if she could dig up the original lease agreement, so I could go over it again.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post

    Question is: is this rule against your 2A rights or the constitution of the state of michigan, if so it makes that part of the contract void and null. While we have the right to own, possess and carry weapons, you are well aware we can OC becasue there is NO MICHIGAN LAW against it. So by defult its legal. (my interpetation of OCing)
    Let's say for the sake of argument, that I did not have my CPL, considering that I could not conceal, and I couldn't OC to get to my car to put the gun into transport mode, and couldn't CC or OC to enter or leave the park where I am allowed to OC, then this rule would absolutely be against the Michigan and US constitution and law.

    BTW, losing this overgrown tent city, er, mobile home park, wouldn't be so terrible, there is too much favoritism and politics going ion here. Ever since these managers took over a couple years ago, the place has really took a $#!+. I have had to spend many nights sleeping in my car off site, or at my parents house, or on the living room floor trying to get away from the drunken stupidity at all hours. I have complained and called the police numerous times, but to no avail. I now plan my waking and resting around the neighbors alcoholism. Not to menyion the drug houses, occasional pedophile, sex offenders and the stalkers that have lived in here. I've seen people stabbed, and hit with bats around here, the place looks peaceful from the outside, but don't let the paint and flowers fool you.

    If I became injured by, either a dog, or a criminal, and would have otherwise been armed, or if I am evicted for OC within my home, then do I have the right to sue?

  23. #23
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    look, and pay attention. first its private property, so even if you win the argument say it goes all the way to the supreme court of the united states and that court says you can carry however you want, you still loose. they will not renew the lease/contract!! you loose, they win period!

    we all have to pick and choose which battles we fight, sometimes its very distasteful to have to loose a battle or several to ultimately win the war!. you could win this battle but you will 100% loose the war. they will either say that they are not going to renew the lease/contract and you leave. or they win and they kick you out sooner. either way your gone.

    so this is what you can do. cover it up when going to or from your trailer, or mowing your grass or anything outside your trailer. when you leave the trailer park property uncover it.

    if someone here tries to tell you to force the issue, then he is no friend to you or anyone who OC's.

    it the same if you force the issue at a business that dosen't allow people to carry in their store. if they don't want you in with a gun then you can't come in with a gun!
    and if you do then you should be charged with tresspass!

    the same unfortunately applies here, not the tresspass part, just the private property part. so unless you really just don't care about haveing to move, by either selling the trailer or takeing it with you then go ahead and push it. but if you can't afford the move then bite your tounge, and cover the gun up while on park property.

    sometimes you have to fight, royal oak was one such case. fighting private property rights where you live not so much.

    and don't forget that you have the waterford school issue your dealing with, which i said i would help you with. which many have said they are on board for. don't screw that up with a fight you don't need right now, especially a fight that can be so easily put off till later!

    keep your house in order and pass this battle off for now. and try not to pay attention to bad advice, no matter where it comes from, if you just keep on OC against the park policy you give all of us a bad name who OC. and a large part of that blame can fall on those who encouraged you also! it might suck to have to cover it up for now and i will gladly give you a good pancake holster for you to use for a while so you can CC eaiser.
    but this is a poor time to pick a fight with the trailer park.

    so let the park win this battle, and we can maybe win the war latter.
    shaun

  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Let me add this would be the last straw for me.. I would try and find other accommodations.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    That's where I'm at with this one.

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