milan dragway

Pouget · Oct 16, 2010

First off, Milan does not have any signs posted saying no guns or anything regarding it.

With that said, would Milan constitute as a place I cannot conceal carry at?

I already tried open carrying and one of the more "famous" security guards that has a hard on for his job got in my face and told me how it was illegal and what not. Im there to watch my buddies race so I didn't get too far into it with him besides the fact it was legal and everything.

maustin195 · Oct 16, 2010

I believe CC is legal subject to private property rules. Open carry would be without a doubt legal subject to private property rules.

Onnie · Oct 16, 2010

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties

1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

Milan Dragway has over 14,000 seats available
the way i read it you can not CC with a cpl, you would need to OC

since they told you can not carry open on their property by the security guard, their agent, you can not carry open either since Private property owners have the right to demand you not OC.

Pouget · Oct 16, 2010

Since its private property, then technically I can conceal carry if they don't have any rules posted, correct?

Onnie · Oct 16, 2010

Pouget said:
Since its private property, then technically I can conceal carry if they don't have any rules posted, correct?

the way i read that law, a person with a CPL MAY NOT conceal carry there because of the 2500+ seating restriction

Your ONLY option is to open carry and they have already said no to you on OCing, via their agent, the security guard

i not even sure with their permission if it would be legal for you to conceal carry because of the number of seats (over 14,000)

anyways thats my read on the law, maybe someone a bit more experenced with the laws pertaining to this might want to chime in

it would not be the first time I was wrong on something:exclaim:

maustin195 · Oct 16, 2010

AG opinion 7120 states that the 2500 seats must be in a building or structure. Milan seating is neither so that rule would be invalid. As far as I can tell only private property rules would apply and they are not posted to there web site or posted at any entrance.

scot623 · Oct 16, 2010

maustin195 said:
AG opinion 7120 states that the 2500 seats must be in a building or structure. Milan seating is neither so that rule would be invalid. As far as I can tell only private property rules would apply and they are not posted to there web site or posted at any entrance.

You don't consider a permanent seating/bleacher area a structure? Good luck with that.

stainless1911 · Oct 16, 2010

Agreed, it would never fly in court. CC is a no-no.

maustin195 · Oct 16, 2010

scot623 said:
You don't consider a permanent seating/bleacher area a structure? Good luck with that.

Read the AG opinion the seating must be "in" a building or structure. If the bleachers were covered then yes but they are not in any type of structure. Even if you counted the stands you could carry anywhere which they exclude for baseball diamonds it doesn't exclude the whole facility.

stainless1911 · Oct 16, 2010

The court does not have to rule according to an AGO.

Onnie · Oct 17, 2010

I live in Maybee just about 10 miles from the dragway most of those bleachers have been there since I was a teenager, I would consider them a structure, they are there 7/24/365 they do not ever move, at least ive never seen them move. IMO I think the courts would view them as a structure. I would not attempt to CC there.

maustin195 · Oct 17, 2010

Onnie said:
I live in Maybee just about 10 miles from the dragway most of those bleachers have been there since I was a teenager, I would consider them a structure, they are there 7/24/365 they do not ever move, at least ive never seen them move. IMO I think the courts would view them as a structure. I would not attempt to CC there.

If you read the AG ruling the only area that would possibly be a PFZ would be the stands. At least in there written opinion avoid the stands and you are good to go. The exact wording is Accordingly, if an outdoorrecreation parkincludes a bandshell,amphitheatre,or similar structure that has the required seatin gcapacity,THAT Portion OF THE PARK Would constitute a gun free zone. So the way I read it everywhere but the stands is not a PFZ.

Onnie · Oct 17, 2010

maustin195 said:
If you read the AG ruling the only area that would possibly be a PFZ would be the stands. At least in there written opinion avoid the stands and you are good to go. The exact wording is Accordingly, if an So the way I read it everywhere but the stands is not a PFZ.

Dahhh, i did read it!

Using your own words

outdoor recreation park includes a bandshell,amphitheatre,or similar structure that has the required seating capacity,THAT Portion OF THE PARK Would constitute a gun free zone.

There is not one word in your quote or in the whole opinion about ONLY THE SEATING AREA is a PFZ. If we use the Bandshell as an example, IMO IT WOULD also include any portion of the park that would be associated with activities produced by the bandshell. That would include the seating stands, the bandshell and any land or structors that are in association with the bandshell to allow it to function as a entertainment facility as long as it has a seating capacity of 2500 plus.

you are saying that if I go to Miland and dont walk into the stands, but walk across the field to the other side of the track onto the side-lines where there are no seats and only grass that I would not be in a PFZ. I say if caught you would get your toosh thrown in jail for CCing in a PFZ

IMO the law is clear that they are refering to the WHOLE area used by the Bandshell and or areas associated with with the bandstand not just the seating area.

btw, while I am no lawyer and I can read. I often enjoy a good intellegent conversation even when my opinion differs from the other persons, but I would appreciate next time your opening line not be condescending. It does this forum or its users looking for answers to their questions no good to be subject to the kind of belittling your first line suggests
of course IMO

maustin195 · Oct 17, 2010

Onnie said:
Dahhh, i did read it!

Using your own words

outdoor recreation park includes a bandshell,amphitheatre,or similar structure that has the required seating capacity,THAT Portion OF THE PARK Would constitute a gun free zone.

There is not one word in your quote or in the whole opinion about ONLY THE SEATING AREA is a PFZ. If we use the Bandshell as an example, IMO IT WOULD also include any portion of the park that would be associated with activities produced by the bandshell. That would include the seating stands, the bandshell and any land or structors that are in association with the bandshell to allow it to function as a entertainment facility as long as it has a seating capacity of 2500 plus.

you are saying that if I go to Miland and dont walk into the stands, but walk across the field to the other side of the track onto the side-lines where there are no seats and only grass that I would not be in a PFZ. I say if caught you would get your toosh thrown in jail for CCing in a PFZ

IMO the law is clear that they are refering to the WHOLE area used by the Bandshell and or areas associated with with the bandstand not just the seating area.

btw, while I am no lawyer and I can read. I often enjoy a good intellegent conversation even when my opinion differs from the other persons, but I would appreciate next time your opening line not be condescending. It does this forum or its users looking for answers to their questions no good to be subject to the kind of belittling your first line suggests
of course IMO

I appologize if you took that as an insult. You had quoted the MCL and not the AG opinion and I didn't know if you had read it. I still think just the stands would be a PFZ not the whole strip. Now the law says "a" structure seating 2500 or more. Milan does seat that many but not on a single structure so do you think they can total multiple structures to qualify?

Onnie · Oct 17, 2010

maustin195 said:
I appologize if you took that as an insult. You had quoted the MCL and not the AG opinion and I didn't know if you had read it. I still think just the stands would be a PFZ not the whole strip. Now the law says "a" structure seating 2500 or more. Milan does seat that many but not on a single structure so do you think they can total multiple structures to qualify?

Thank you sir!

Once you have a structure that holds more than 2500 seats, the question where does the PFZ line get drawn. Is it at the entrance to the seats? What about the seperate "stand-alone" stands out at the end of the track that only have 1000 seats each, are those exempt in and by themselfs?

There is no real definition of structures in the mcl or the opinion i can find, I may have just not see it, but one definition is "something constructed".
Is not the whole raceway "something constructed" and can the WHOLE raceway seat more that 2500. If the answer is yes, I think the whole ENTERTAINMENT FACILITY now becomes a PFZ.

quote from the opinion
"The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function"
Since according to the opinion the Entertainment facility is constructed then the question is can it hold more than 2500 seats, if the answer is YES IMO the whole Entertainment facility now becomes a PFZ.
I dont think you need 2500 seats in one stand or even near each other, I think it would just have to be 2500 overall for it to be a PFZ.

We have a bandstand here in Monroe, it has no seats but it does have a lot of grass in front of it on a hill that was build expressly for the bandstand. Can it sit more than 2500, I don't think so but for this post lets say yes. If you take the opinion at its word, the bandstand and the hill would be the entertainment facility, the hill was constructed thus could be considered a "structure" and it could SIT more that 2500 on it. Could it be a PFZ, well if you use their definition it was constructed, thus its a structure for sitting and some may consider it a PFZ. Since its not fenced, one would have to question where does the entertainment facility end.

I would like to be wrong on this! And I am surely no expert on MCL's and AG opinions
but when some LEOs DONT even know OCing is legal and still belive if you have a CPL you must CC how can we expect them to know where PFZ start and end in a Entertainment Facility?

maustin195 · Oct 17, 2010

Onnie said:
Thank you sir!

Once you have a structure that holds more than 2500 seats, the question where does the PFZ line get drawn. Is it at the entrance to the seats? What about the seperate "stand-alone" stands out at the end of the track that only have 1000 seats each, are those exempt in and by themselfs?

There is no real definition of structures in the mcl or the opinion i can find, I may have just not see it, but one definition is "something constructed".
Is not the whole raceway "something constructed" and can the WHOLE raceway seat more that 2500. If the answer is yes, I think the whole ENTERTAINMENT FACILITY now becomes a PFZ.

quote from the opinion
"The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function"
Since according to the opinion the Entertainment facility is constructed then the question is can it hold more than 2500 seats, if the answer is YES IMO the whole Entertainment facility now becomes a PFZ.
I dont think you need 2500 seats in one stand or even near each other, I think it would just have to be 2500 overall for it to be a PFZ.

We have a bandstand here in Monroe, it has no seats but it does have a lot of grass in front of it on a hill that was build expressly for the bandstand. Can it sit more than 2500, I don't think so but for this post lets say yes. If you take the opinion at its word, the bandstand and the hill would be the entertainment facility, the hill was constructed thus could be considered a "structure" and it could SIT more that 2500 on it. Could it be a PFZ, well if you use their definition it was constructed, thus its a structure for sitting and some may consider it a PFZ. Since its not fenced, one would have to question where does the entertainment facility end.

I would like to be wrong on this! And I am surely no expert on MCL's and AG opinions
but when some LEOs DONT even know OCing is legal and still belive if you have a CPL you must CC how can we expect them to know where PFZ start and end in a Entertainment Facility?

I believe I read somewhere but can't find it now that the Detroit Zoo claims over 2500 seats but you can carry anywhere but the seating area. If so what difference is there between facilities.

Onnie · Oct 18, 2010

the zoo at one time was owned by the city of detroit and was public property, dont know if it still is or not

if its still public property it may be considered a city park where milan is private property

I have not been to the zoo in years, are then even 2500 seats there?

milan dragway

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