Rich B
Regular Member
I seem to be a good magnet for the really odd encounters, but this one takes the cake so far.
This morning I was sitting with my girlfriend at the bar area in the Old Saybrook Starbucks. I was open carrying like I normally do. We were both using our laptops, me doing some work, she was working on school work. The bar area is behind the main seating area, but we sit there because it has more space for us to spread out and get real work done. The area is not highly visible, but plenty of people can see us.
This is not at all our first time working in Starbucks (especially since they made the WIFI free!), and I open carry just about everywhere. Also, knowing Starbucks' national policy, we were even more at ease than normal (which is really relaxed!).
We were there for maybe about an hour when I started noticing various employees looking at me funny. Shortly after, two Old Saybrook police officers walk in. One turns out to be Sergeant Gardner. The other is without his uniform shirt. Sergeant Gardner walks up to where I am sitting and says hello. I turn around, say hello back, and turn back to my work.
He then asks me to step outside with him. I ask him "I'm sorry, am I being detained?". He replies that I am. I say ok, no problem. I then ask him if he minds if I reach in my pocket. He says ok, I do, he for some reason gets a bit alarmed, but I show him it is just my voice recorder. He seems fine with this. I arm the recorder and start recording.
As we walk outside, the officer proceeds to tell me that Connecticut is a 'concealed carry state'. I inform him that it is not. We get outside, where Sergeant Gardner proceeds to request my pistol permit. I reply to this effect:
"I will do that, but I want you to understand beforehand that I do not consent to any searches or seizures and that I am only giving you my permit under duress."
During which he rudely interrupts several times with demands for my ID. I make sure to finish, and supply him with my permit. He pauses for a second and then tells me he needs my drivers license as well. I again protest and tell him I don't understand what he needs it for since he should be more than fine with my permit. He insists (belligerently) and I again make it clear I am doing so under duress.
He takes my ID over to the parking lot where I assume he ran my IDs which obviously turn up nothing. During the time I speak to the other officer (his name escapes me at the moment, but I did get him to introduce himself on the recording). We have a bit of a conversation where I explain that he is incorrect about CT being a 'concealed carry state' and that open carry is legal and that they are not allowed under law to detain me or demand my ID. He of course does not agree. He states that I 'alarmed people' and that I would be subject to arrest for breach of peace. I politely but assertively inform him that breach of peace is a settled issue and that he is incorrect and that making an arrest like he is talking about would be a bad idea legally. We debate very briefly about the language of the statute, but I can tell he is only going to give me the standard drivel that we always get, and I choose to hand over the CCDL documents instead and invite him to take a good look since I think he could stand a refresher course on the law in CT.
He also makes the statement that I should look at my permit and that it is a 'concealed carry permit'. I tell it would be difficult to do so since they had seized it from me, but if he had a permit I would be happy to show him the error in his understanding. He says he does have a permit, but never produces it. What a shame.
A new officer (Patrolman Demarco) arrives on scene and relieves the officer detaining me. The Sergeant is still on the radio, and I think talking to another (possibly superior) officer who has arrived. Patrolman Demarco walks up and I strike up a conversation with him. I indicate "Just so you know I am armed, I am not sure what you know about this". He says that of course he knows I am armed, that is why he is here. No problem, just making sure I don't get shot or tackled by a nervous LEO who is not properly briefed on the situation.
I ask Patrolman Demarco "Are you aware open carry is legal in CT?". He replies "Yes". I laugh a bit and make a point that I shouldn't be detained if it is legal. He backtracks and says they are still trying to determine legality and such. That is fine. Whatever.
We talk a little bit more, I present him the same documents to help him out.
The Sergeant comes back to me and hands me my ID. The way he approached, I thought for sure I was being handcuffed, but obviously could not be too worried considering how wrong they were. It would have been a shame to waste my coffee though.
To my surprise it seems I am free to go. Sounds like someone talked this Sergeant down and explained the error in his thinking. Good on whoever did that. I wish they had been the responder and then maybe I wouldn't have been illegally detained in the first place.
The Sergeant goes inside to talk to the employees. I should mention that the first officer to detain me indicated that an employee (!!) had called them when I asked if this was a citizen complaint. He goes in, comes out a few minutes later and tells me I am free to go, but they don't want me inside. I say I understand that it is their right, but that I need to grab my laptop and my stuff before I go. He escorts me in and I pack up. During this time, I tell him he is letting me go, so he must have found out it is legal. He indicates that he still does not agree.
I find that point interesting. He feels I am breaking the law, but does not arrest me. Surprisingly, he doesn't even mention that I should conceal or anything else (I hear about this from most arrest free encounters).
So here I am. I am at the Meriden Starbucks now, no arrest, but in almost exactly the same condition as St. John from New Mexico.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...olice-pay-21-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit
Interestingly enough, I was never disarmed though. I guess that is a step in the right direction? I still don't think any of this is acceptable, so this a pretty small consolation.
Now, for Starbucks involvement, I have tried contacting them, but they are not open on weekends, so I guess I will pursue this during the week. I think some serious violations of policy and customer relations happened here. We were all made to believe that their policy was that they would defer to state law and they would not provide a problem for open carriers as long as no law is being broken. And yet, I had the police called and I was asked to leave the store.
I cannot imagine it will be too difficult to rectify this through their customer relations, but I guess I will find out. I am more than a little disappointed in them. I wouldn't be able to argue too much if a customer had done this, but this was their employee.
We confirmed this a bit since my girlfriend was still inside when I was detained and listened to the employees mock, criticize and joke about my detainment stating opinions like "he can't do that, it needs to be concealed!" and such nonsense. Apparently she also got the clear impression of the actual employee who called it in, who was boasting about it.
Also, we have information that the police disclosed my permit status to the manager for no reason. Something I will pursue when I have the opportunity. That is another CT statute we need to make sure the Old Saybrook PD learns about.
More later, I will definitely release the recording when I have a chance to go over it and make sure no personal information (like I have any anymore thanks to officers...) is contained. I think I also need to trim the end off the recording since I think I let the recorder run a bit long.
Listened to a bit of it, and I think I got most of it. It is really windy today though and they made me stand outside shivering while I was detained, so it might be a little noisy. I will do my best.
Thanks everyone for beating it into my head to have a recorder. I think this should be a great example for future OCers what a CT police encounter can be like and how to respond appropriately. I will let you guys judge for yourselves though.
More to come... stay tuned...
This morning I was sitting with my girlfriend at the bar area in the Old Saybrook Starbucks. I was open carrying like I normally do. We were both using our laptops, me doing some work, she was working on school work. The bar area is behind the main seating area, but we sit there because it has more space for us to spread out and get real work done. The area is not highly visible, but plenty of people can see us.
This is not at all our first time working in Starbucks (especially since they made the WIFI free!), and I open carry just about everywhere. Also, knowing Starbucks' national policy, we were even more at ease than normal (which is really relaxed!).
We were there for maybe about an hour when I started noticing various employees looking at me funny. Shortly after, two Old Saybrook police officers walk in. One turns out to be Sergeant Gardner. The other is without his uniform shirt. Sergeant Gardner walks up to where I am sitting and says hello. I turn around, say hello back, and turn back to my work.
He then asks me to step outside with him. I ask him "I'm sorry, am I being detained?". He replies that I am. I say ok, no problem. I then ask him if he minds if I reach in my pocket. He says ok, I do, he for some reason gets a bit alarmed, but I show him it is just my voice recorder. He seems fine with this. I arm the recorder and start recording.
As we walk outside, the officer proceeds to tell me that Connecticut is a 'concealed carry state'. I inform him that it is not. We get outside, where Sergeant Gardner proceeds to request my pistol permit. I reply to this effect:
"I will do that, but I want you to understand beforehand that I do not consent to any searches or seizures and that I am only giving you my permit under duress."
During which he rudely interrupts several times with demands for my ID. I make sure to finish, and supply him with my permit. He pauses for a second and then tells me he needs my drivers license as well. I again protest and tell him I don't understand what he needs it for since he should be more than fine with my permit. He insists (belligerently) and I again make it clear I am doing so under duress.
He takes my ID over to the parking lot where I assume he ran my IDs which obviously turn up nothing. During the time I speak to the other officer (his name escapes me at the moment, but I did get him to introduce himself on the recording). We have a bit of a conversation where I explain that he is incorrect about CT being a 'concealed carry state' and that open carry is legal and that they are not allowed under law to detain me or demand my ID. He of course does not agree. He states that I 'alarmed people' and that I would be subject to arrest for breach of peace. I politely but assertively inform him that breach of peace is a settled issue and that he is incorrect and that making an arrest like he is talking about would be a bad idea legally. We debate very briefly about the language of the statute, but I can tell he is only going to give me the standard drivel that we always get, and I choose to hand over the CCDL documents instead and invite him to take a good look since I think he could stand a refresher course on the law in CT.
He also makes the statement that I should look at my permit and that it is a 'concealed carry permit'. I tell it would be difficult to do so since they had seized it from me, but if he had a permit I would be happy to show him the error in his understanding. He says he does have a permit, but never produces it. What a shame.
A new officer (Patrolman Demarco) arrives on scene and relieves the officer detaining me. The Sergeant is still on the radio, and I think talking to another (possibly superior) officer who has arrived. Patrolman Demarco walks up and I strike up a conversation with him. I indicate "Just so you know I am armed, I am not sure what you know about this". He says that of course he knows I am armed, that is why he is here. No problem, just making sure I don't get shot or tackled by a nervous LEO who is not properly briefed on the situation.
I ask Patrolman Demarco "Are you aware open carry is legal in CT?". He replies "Yes". I laugh a bit and make a point that I shouldn't be detained if it is legal. He backtracks and says they are still trying to determine legality and such. That is fine. Whatever.
We talk a little bit more, I present him the same documents to help him out.
The Sergeant comes back to me and hands me my ID. The way he approached, I thought for sure I was being handcuffed, but obviously could not be too worried considering how wrong they were. It would have been a shame to waste my coffee though.
To my surprise it seems I am free to go. Sounds like someone talked this Sergeant down and explained the error in his thinking. Good on whoever did that. I wish they had been the responder and then maybe I wouldn't have been illegally detained in the first place.
The Sergeant goes inside to talk to the employees. I should mention that the first officer to detain me indicated that an employee (!!) had called them when I asked if this was a citizen complaint. He goes in, comes out a few minutes later and tells me I am free to go, but they don't want me inside. I say I understand that it is their right, but that I need to grab my laptop and my stuff before I go. He escorts me in and I pack up. During this time, I tell him he is letting me go, so he must have found out it is legal. He indicates that he still does not agree.
I find that point interesting. He feels I am breaking the law, but does not arrest me. Surprisingly, he doesn't even mention that I should conceal or anything else (I hear about this from most arrest free encounters).
So here I am. I am at the Meriden Starbucks now, no arrest, but in almost exactly the same condition as St. John from New Mexico.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...olice-pay-21-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit
Interestingly enough, I was never disarmed though. I guess that is a step in the right direction? I still don't think any of this is acceptable, so this a pretty small consolation.
Now, for Starbucks involvement, I have tried contacting them, but they are not open on weekends, so I guess I will pursue this during the week. I think some serious violations of policy and customer relations happened here. We were all made to believe that their policy was that they would defer to state law and they would not provide a problem for open carriers as long as no law is being broken. And yet, I had the police called and I was asked to leave the store.
I cannot imagine it will be too difficult to rectify this through their customer relations, but I guess I will find out. I am more than a little disappointed in them. I wouldn't be able to argue too much if a customer had done this, but this was their employee.
We confirmed this a bit since my girlfriend was still inside when I was detained and listened to the employees mock, criticize and joke about my detainment stating opinions like "he can't do that, it needs to be concealed!" and such nonsense. Apparently she also got the clear impression of the actual employee who called it in, who was boasting about it.
Also, we have information that the police disclosed my permit status to the manager for no reason. Something I will pursue when I have the opportunity. That is another CT statute we need to make sure the Old Saybrook PD learns about.
More later, I will definitely release the recording when I have a chance to go over it and make sure no personal information (like I have any anymore thanks to officers...) is contained. I think I also need to trim the end off the recording since I think I let the recorder run a bit long.
Listened to a bit of it, and I think I got most of it. It is really windy today though and they made me stand outside shivering while I was detained, so it might be a little noisy. I will do my best.
Thanks everyone for beating it into my head to have a recorder. I think this should be a great example for future OCers what a CT police encounter can be like and how to respond appropriately. I will let you guys judge for yourselves though.
More to come... stay tuned...
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