Can Tennessee deny a HCP to someone with a C&R FFL ?

kwikrnu · Oct 17, 2010

HvyMtl said:
Yes, the recent SCOTUS ruling will not repeal, what, at least 140+ years of actively restricting the 2nd A. It will take a lot of time to get the rulings necessary to remove some of the restrictions. Yes, some, as the Court has allowed so called "reasonable" restrictions. And has not defined what is reasonable and what is not...

This said, the State can merely say, you have a C&R? So? They are not bound by any means to give your permit back even if the Feds grant you a C&R.

The Supreme Court never used the term "reasonable restrictions". They said "longstanding" followed by felons, mentally ill and sensitive places.

The State will not reinstate the permit. The idea behind the license is to show the absurdity of the Tennessee permit law. I won't need a permit if I can win my suit.

HvyMtl · Oct 17, 2010

Oops, seems I am getting Heller and McDonald mixed up...

Heller dealt with federal areas, McDonald deals with State/Local...

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

Page 39-40 are the pages to read about state and local laws restricting firearms, they do use the "long standing" restrictions given in Heller. They also say,"Despite Municipal Respondent's doomsday proclamations, incorporation does not imperil every law regulating firearms." (top of page 40.)

And this points to what the AG was stating. Not all regulation of firearms by the state are barred...sadly, I wish the SCOTUS had been more specific...

KBCraig · Oct 18, 2010

There are C&R FFLs in Maryland and Illinois and Wisconsin and Hawaii. They don't get to carry just because they have a license allowing them to buy C&R firearms across state lines.

kwikrnu · Oct 18, 2010

KBCraig said:
There are C&R FFLs in Maryland and Illinois and Wisconsin and Hawaii. They don't get to carry just because they have a license allowing them to buy C&R firearms across state lines.

This is my point. We have a right to bear arms. It is a right enumerated in the Constitution. It shall not be infringed except for longstanding prohibitions such as those on felons, mentally ill, and carry in sensitive places. The Heller court has said few bans were as restrictive as the DC ban they overturned and one of those was the Tennessee ban on carrying a handgun. The C&R licensee has been checked and cleared by the federal government. The license is not issued to those prohibited from possessing a firearm. They should not be prohibited the ability to carry firearms.

I am not stating that the c&r license grants one the ability to carry a firearm. I am only stating that it is a right to bear arms and the licensee has been cleared to purchase certain guns w/o background checks across state lines.

kwikrnu · Oct 18, 2010

HvyMtl said:
And this points to what the AG was stating. Not all regulation of firearms by the state are barred...sadly, I wish the SCOTUS had been more specific...

They will adopt a strict scrutiny and the only people we know for certain who are barred are felons and the mentally ill. The AG deliberately took a quote from the amici brief which was beneficial to him, but failed to quote it in it's entirety. "State and local experimentation with reasonable firearms regulations will continue under the Second Amendment. As noted in Heller, “[l]ike most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.” Id. at 2816. Many firearms regulations would plainly survive Second Amendment scrutiny, such as “longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

He also missed the part at the end where it states, "Denying local governments the power to nullify the Amendment will not increase federal power, mandate any state action pursuant to federal directives, or preclude reasonable state and local regulation of firearms. It will simply prevent local governments, like the federal government, from abrogating the fundamental, individual right to keep and bear arms."

Some people may say there is going to be some "reasonable test" to judge these Second Amendment cases. However, it is my opinion that will not be the case. Reasonable was never mentioned by the majority in Heller or McDonald. In Heller he also states, "Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster." If they were going to apply a "reasonableness standard" he could not have made that statement.

kwikrnu · Oct 19, 2010

I called and inquired about the status of my application. They have issued me a number and the application is pending.

In my opinion this shows that the "shall issue" permitting system is broke. This is why the permit system is a bad idea and a restriction of rights.

I could get an 01 FFL and pay for a class III stamp allowing me to stock and sell machine guns and silencers. I am going to look into it.

Brutus · Oct 19, 2010

kwikrnu said:
I've applied for a curio and relic federal firearms license and meet the requirements. When approved what excuse will the State use to continue to deny my handgun carry permit?

Why worry about it? Why not just carry your Navy revolver openly in your hand?

kwikrnu · Oct 19, 2010

Brutus said:
Why worry about it? Why not just carry your Navy revolver openly in your hand?

The carry of loaded handguns is mostly illegal w/o a permit in the State of Tennessee. TCA 39-17-1307.

Kingfish · Oct 19, 2010

kwikrnu said:
The carry of loaded handguns is mostly illegal w/o a permit in the State of Tennessee. TCA 39-17-1307.

But if you did not have a problem breaking the Brentwood ordinance which you believe to be unconstitutional then what's the problem with breaking Tennessee law that you also believe unconstitutional? Or do you only break the laws you know are not enforced?

kwikrnu · Oct 26, 2010

The BATFE received my application on Oct. 10, 2010. I received the FFL license on Oct. 25, 2010.

I can now buy certain guns direct with no background check, but I can't carry a handgun in Tennessee. :lol:

Link

Thundar · Oct 26, 2010

kwikrnu said:
The BATFE received my application on Oct. 10, 2010. I received the FFL license on Oct. 25, 2010.

I can now buy certain guns direct with no background check, but I can't carry a handgun in Tennessee. :lol:

Link

Kwik,

Do not sign the original. Photocopy it and sent the photocopy when making internet or out of state purchases.

Remember you must record all C&R aquisitions and dispositions in your bound book.

The C&R license cannot be used as a carry permit, however the theft of firearms from an FFL is a specific federal felony.

kwikrnu · Oct 26, 2010

Thundar said:
Kwik,

Do not sign the original. Photocopy it and sent the photocopy when making internet or out of state purchases.

Remember you must record all C&R aquisitions and dispositions in your bound book.

The C&R license cannot be used as a carry permit, however the theft of firearms from an FFL is a specific federal felony.

I think it is silly that I can now make multiple purchases of certain firearms across state lines with no background checks and it is all cleared by the federal government. However, I can't carry a handgun in Tennessee because my permit is permanently suspended...:lol:

I got the FFL to show the irony. I would have a few seperate carry permits from other States, but can't find anyone close that offers the UT permit combined with a class for the FL permit.

HvyMtl · Oct 27, 2010

Can Tennessee deny a HCP to someone with a C&R FFL ? Question answered. Apparently, yes, they can.

Thundar is correct, dont sign the original, and make lots of copies. So when you go to a gun show you can use them too.

JoeSparky · Oct 27, 2010

I am not picking a fight here BUT,

The more correct query for this entire thread would be, "WILL the BATFE issue one a FFL after their Tennessee Carry Permit has been revoked?"

And the answer seems to be "YES"!

kwikrnu · Oct 27, 2010

The Constitution of the United States says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Tennessee is a shall issue State. So exactly how may Tennessee refuse to permit someone the right to bear arms? How may Tennessee criminalize the carrying of all loaded firearms? The problem is the States not the federal government.

Kingfish · Oct 28, 2010

kwikrnu said:
The problem is the States not the federal government.

The federal government has but one true duty. That duty is to secure the blessings of liberty. If a state is violating the rights of it's citizens then the federal government must intercede and end the oppression.

Thundar · Oct 28, 2010

Kwik,

Just thinking,

As part of the FFL license application you must notify your sheriff that you have applied for the license. This gives the sheriff a chance to provide information to the BATFE. It would be interesting to see if the sheriff made the same remarks for the FFL license as he did for the silencer. Not sure what you could do with that info, but a lawyer might be able to use that in a permit lawsuit.

Not sure if you can get the sheriff response, if any, via FOIA.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

kwikrnu · Nov 2, 2010

Thundar said:
Kwik,

Just thinking,

As part of the FFL license application you must notify your sheriff that you have applied for the license. This gives the sheriff a chance to provide information to the BATFE. It would be interesting to see if the sheriff made the same remarks for the FFL license as he did for the silencer. Not sure what you could do with that info, but a lawyer might be able to use that in a permit lawsuit.

Not sure if you can get the sheriff response, if any, via FOIA.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

He had no info against me regarding the silencer. He admitted as much in two seperate letters to me. :lol: I didn't think of doing a FOIA because I was approved. However, you make a good point and I think I will do a FOIA. He probably had no idea the ATF would issue my FFL so quickly. I had the FFL in my hands about 2 weeks after I originally sent the application. He's going to be pissed when he finds out that as a trustee I may soon possess a silencer.

Thundar · Nov 9, 2010

kwikrnu said:
He had no info against me regarding the silencer. He admitted as much in two seperate letters to me. :lol: I didn't think of doing a FOIA because I was approved. However, you make a good point and I think I will do a FOIA. He probably had no idea the ATF would issue my FFL so quickly. I had the FFL in my hands about 2 weeks after I originally sent the application. He's going to be pissed when he finds out that as a trustee I may soon possess a silencer.

The corporate owner route. Very effective at swatting away the local police silliness.

If you do not have a zoning issue, then you could apply for an FFL Dealer or Manufacturer license. With the license you can get your SOT (Special Occupational Tax) license and have machine guns and short barreled shotguns as well.

Look at the other licenses if you are serious and pay for the FFL 123 course online. It explains a whole lot and gets you past many issues. (Get the NFA add on to the course).

kwikrnu · Nov 9, 2010

Thundar said:
The corporate owner route. Very effective at swatting away the local police silliness.

If you do not have a zoning issue, then you could apply for an FFL Dealer or Manufacturer license. With the license you can get your SOT (Special Occupational Tax) license and have machine guns and short barreled shotguns as well.

Look at the other licenses if you are serious and pay for the FFL 123 course online. It explains a whole lot and gets you past many issues. (Get the NFA add on to the course).

I have a trust and am still experiencing problems with the local ATF branch. I do not have a business address and live in a "conservation" neighborhood. That means I cannot conduct a business from home. My neighbor is a SOT FFL and sells NFA weapons. He sells insurance at a business address which is where I think he actually has his FFL address on file.

Doesn't Major Malfunction sell that?

Can Tennessee deny a HCP to someone with a C&R FFL ?

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