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Feds vow marijuana enforcement regardless of California vote, WSJ ...H/T Matt Drudge

Doug Huffman

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How many legal 'lifestyle' drugs are available in America, on the market, and how many of those are without problems? One is a problem if only for the money and ad space spent trying to convince us that anything so good must be harmful somehow.

Do we need another?

We bear the cost of TWOD, if it is abandoned then the money and lives are wasted and the slide to Third World status is accelerated.
 
M

McX

Guest
well, i suppose they will need something to calm their nerves, when the big one hits, and cali drops off into the ocean, after all, the beer stores may be closed.
 

Tawnos

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Citations needed.

You can read it uncommented here: http://usconstitution.net/csa.html

Or go through the section by section comparison and commentary: http://www.filibustercartoons.com/csa.htm

Fundamentally the civil war was a boil over of the same issue that had been bubbling in America's gut since the removal of the articles of confederation and the adoption of the constitution--Federalists vs. anti-federalists.
From a strict analysis of what powers the states were given and what powers the federal government maintained and or had expanded, that's BS. When people talk about the abuses of federal power, they speak of things like the supremacy clause, the suspension of habeus corpus, et cetera, NOT about the power to tax and regulate ships using waterways or impeach federal officials. Yet the CSA didn't touch the former (and in some cases expanded the federal government's power, e.g. line-item veto), and only really added the latter...and a whole lot of references to slavery.

American public schools as a product of white guilt love to shove the issue of slavery down our throats as the sole cause or underlying "real" reason, however this is just not the case.
You're going to need to present citations to back up your claim. I've shown that, from a constitutional perspective, the most powerful thing done by the CSA was to make slavery the law of the land. It was largely economic self-preservation, though there are certainly racial tensions that the south fought to maintain for a long period after reconstruction.

The issue of federalism vs. anti-feds had been around for 100 years or so, there were many more extenuating political and sociological reasons for the civil war rift.
The fact there has been such conflict does not change the reality of what the CSA fundamentally stood for as evidenced by its constitution. The primary reason was, in my opinion (and many others), economic - note that I consider slavery an institution of economics, not one of racism (so stop with the 'white guilt' bullshiat).

To sum it up under "slavery" is ignorance and narrow-mindedness from a history perspective. Also, seeing as the CSA didn't last long enough to fully implement policy, its constitution, and rights outside of a time of war, it would be academically flawed to judge them on what they never got the chance to fully ratify, implement, change, etc.
One need only to read their ratified constitution to see the direction of their ideal country. The only academic flaw is ignoring its existence because that violates the oft-repeated lie that the CSA was about states' rights, rather than preserving an economic status quo.
 

since9

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I support Marijuana for medical uses. I don't support prohibition. But I don't actively support full legalization either.

I'm not sure I support it for medical use. If it's that effective for management of pain, simply find and synthesize the ingredient.

Oh, wait! They have.

And interestingly, the picture of the bottled extract at the top is from 1937.
 
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Tawnos

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I'm not sure I support it for medical use. If it's that effective for management of pain, simply find and synthesize the ingredient.

Oh, wait! They have.

And interestingly, the picture of the bottled extract at the top is from 1937.

You ever talked with anyone who's had to use marinol compared to marijuana to compensate for chemotherapy?

Additionally, marinol is only D9THC, it does not include the other cannabinoids that can have medicinal benefits and purposes.
 

elixin77

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One of the main reasons marijuana isn't legal right now is because the pharmaceutical industry has the world by the balls.

Before the big nasty drug companies came along, people were generally very healthy. Sure, there were some remedies that were addictive, but thats the price of a free market (and before congress ordered all things edible to have a list of ingredients).

Compared to today, people are drugged up on either happy pills, or some other mind altering substance that makes them 'normal' and goes along with the rest of society.

Weed makes my friend able to go to class without being on heavy opiates (and he has noted that his teachers know when he's on said opiates) due to his pain from injuries while in the service. Weed helps people in pain by allowing them to cope with the pain, and be normal productive Americans. Give those same people opiates and other hard narcotics to take out the pain, and they become what anti-druggers say weed users are: pure couch potatoes.

Now, there are some strains of marijuana that do make couch potatoes; however, hard pain meds are more notorious for doing what only a few strains of weed do. That, and those pain meds end up being extremely addictive, end up ruining the liver, and makes the person another dependent on drugs.
 

Tawnos

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Before the big nasty drug companies came along, people were generally very healthy. Sure, there were some remedies that were addictive, but thats the price of a free market (and before congress ordered all things edible to have a list of ingredients).
Citation needed.

Before modern medicine, you had snake oil salesmen that were essentially getting people addicted to morphine. People were *not* in general very healthy, and numerous (now) preventable diseases killed or crippled a large percentage of the people every year. People who did survive to old age faced untreatable poor eyesight, undiagnosed or untreatable osteoporosis, cancer that could not be driven into remission, arthritis that was crippling, etc.

The halcyon view of the past as some healthy amazingly happy place belongs in a fairy tale book.

*edit* I do agree with the rest of your post, however. I've seen similar things firsthand.
 
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Tawnos

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Fair enough. I was going off of word of mouth, which ended up being wrong.

What I say, too, is word of mouth. It's good to do the research yourself :). Not saying I'm lying to you, but look into the history of the pure food and drugs act, and you can see a massive change in the quality and efficacy of drugs pre- and post-implementation.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
Don't forget Hemp is illegal too, and it doesn't get you high and has many industrial uses.

It wasn't just the "drug" companies, it was tobacco and lumber lobbyist too. Who in turned used hysteria and racism to outlaw something that is less harmful (other than ingesting smoke) than alcohol.

Disclaimer: I don't use marijuana and probably never will. But who am I to step on the liberty of others and their self determination to do what they want with their bodies and relax with a joint instead of a bottle?
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Medical marijuana was a ruse. It was passed as one step on the way to full legalization and pretty much amounted to full legalization as anyone who wanted to smoke pot could find a doctor who'd write a scrip for them.

It's California's business, though. Let 'em be stupid. Their stupidity has the State falling apart anyway.

However, the feds are right. That no State law would be broken by possession does not mean that no federal law would be broken. Enforcement would be more difficult without help from the locals. That does not mean that someone smoking their California-legal joint in front of a federal LEO could not be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced within the federal legal system.
 

END_THE_FED

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How many legal 'lifestyle' drugs are available in America, on the market, and how many of those are without problems? One is a problem if only for the money and ad space spent trying to convince us that anything so good must be harmful somehow.

Do we need another?

We bear the cost of TWOD, if it is abandoned then the money and lives are wasted and the slide to Third World status is accelerated.


And then there are those who feel that the money and lives are wasted now, with prohibition.

Pot, or any other drug for that matter, should be a State issue. The feds need to back off.
 

END_THE_FED

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I'm of the opinion that the government doesn't have any right to tell me or anyone else what I can and can't do my own body, as long as it doesn't affect other people's rights. Whether or not anyone smokes isn't the issue - its the government saying "we can do this, you can't do that." this needs to stop. Not only is it super crazy expensive, it also does near absolutely nothing and is extremely inefficient.


I recently saw a video from L.E.A.P (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition). A speaker mentioned that the percentage of Drug addicts in this country, in 1914 when congress passed The Harrison Act was 1.3%, and today the percentage of people in the US that are addicted to drugs is.............wait for it.............1.3%!!!!!
(I have not been able to verify this yet but I am working on it.)
If that is accurate then wow.......just wow........

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0c6_1192726710 it is a promo video, and is a compilation of several speeches


EDIT: To fix link (wrong LEAP oops)
 
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END_THE_FED

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Actually, yes, including two people in the building in which I live.

Regardless, yours is a Red Herring argument (fallacious argument), as you mention this but fail to list any of the more than thirty such other compounds.


  • CBG Cannabigerol
  • CBC Cannabichromene
  • CBL Cannabicyclol
  • CBV Cannabivarin
  • THCV Tetrahydrocannabivarin
  • CBDV Cannabidivarin
  • CBCV Cannabichromevarin
  • CBGV Cannabigerovarin
  • CBGM Cannabigerol Monoethyl Ether
to name a few. There are many many others that have been isolated I think it is like 60 something. (to be fair many of these can be synthesized as well)


http://www.news-medical.net/health/Cannabinoids-What-are-Cannabinoids.aspx
 

Tawnos

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Actually, yes, including two people in the building in which I live.

Regardless, yours is a Red Herring argument (fallacious argument), as you mention this but fail to list any of the more than thirty such other compounds.

You don't seem to know what a red herring is. It's where you bring up something that appears to be relevant to the conversation, but isn't, and is mainly a distraction.

I stated "cannabinoids" because listing all 85 would have been pointless, but how about this big one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol

People I've talked to who have used marinol (legally) and marijuana (pre medical marijuana, so illegally) said the former was generally ineffective for a number of reasons. First, it relied on swallowing and digesting a pill when the person was nauseous and having trouble keeping things down. Second, the effects took so long to come on that it was difficult to determine the correct amount to take to have enough that is effective but not so much that the effects produce nausea. Third, because the pill is entirely THC, the effects were much worse on memory, focus, etc than a marijuana plant with a high CBD/THC ratio.

Interestingly, marijuana is still schedule 1, despite the fact it has known medical uses and does not have high addictiveness potential. I suspect it's due to people like you, who think "well, we've synthesized D9THC, let's stop studying the other 84 substances that occur in varying amounts depending on strain." Not to mention the fact that the primary problems with pot are entirely a result of its legal status, and that it has been used to carve giant holes out of the constitution. California is on the right path here, and I hope other states follow suit until the federal government bends. There is no good constitutional basis for the federal regulation of marijuana.
 

ChiangShih

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The only academic flaw is ignoring its existence because that violates the oft-repeated lie that the CSA was about states' rights, rather than preserving an economic status quo.

You present a good argument, sadly it is for the symptom of a greater cause. Preserving the status quo through the preservation of slavery or any method for that matter was the southern states response to what they felt was a federal government that was disconnected with the political and social ideologies of the southern states. Now, I'm not saying slavery wasn't a issue in the civil war dismissing it would be wrong. My point is, there was a multitude of political, sociological, and economic issues that eventually lead to the civil war. I would even go as far to say slavery wasn't even the core issue. Like you said slavery is an economic issue, the removal of a large domestic product producing industry was seen as an attack on the industry owners in the south by moral entrepreneurs in the north. Fundamentally, if I were to agree with you, this does boil down to money. The states at the time, whose industry depended on agriculture and farming felt that the decision should be held to the state level for they know what is best for the people and the state. Thus, federalism idealists against anti-federalist idealist, the same ideological conflict that had been going on for 100 years, now with a new issue. Also, most of the men who fought for the south had never owned a slave and there were even black confederate regiments. In response to the respectable claims that the CSA had not done much in the respect of policy implementation, I agree; however, I go back to my original point, examining the policies and constitution of a country that had not yet fully formed or had a period of peace to create or implement new policy is premature. There is no telling what the CSA would have or could have done(in the respect of policy or constitutional changes) if they'd had won, the war never happened, or they held off. The CSA's more immediate response to the issue was slavery was because that was the political talking point of the day. Obama is all about the health care and the bailouts, that isn't the only policy he has done or planned to do, but those were the "loudest" issues of the public sphere.

In summary: The civil war was a result of multiple issues public and political, that fundamentally represented the issue of state power vs. federal power. A political and social ideology differed in a nation that at the time was not nearly as connected both literally and metaphorically. Slavery was nothing more than the political issue at the time used to reignite and represent a long fought dispute.



P.S.- white guilt white guilt white guilt.

P.P.S- we should probably finish this debate in private or another thread, for we've kind of highjacked this one.
 
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Tawnos

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I agree; however, I go back to my original point, examining the policies and constitution of a country that had not yet fully formed or had a period of peace to create or implement new policy is premature. There is no telling what the CSA would have or could have done(in the respect of policy or constitutional changes) if they'd had won, the war never happened, or they held off.

You're right, you can't tell what they *might* have done, but we have a pretty good probabilistic guess, based on the reconstruction issues and the rarity of constitutional amendment in the US. Since they kept the same mechanism for constitutional change that we use, it is unlikely (based on our own use of the amendment procedure) that such fundamental changes would have occurred to truly make the CSA about states' rights. Thus, the only history we may safely rely upon is the documents and case law following the civil war - stuff we have, rather than speculation over what might have been.

Pulling out the canard/red herring of "there were blacks in the confederate army" does nothing to address the issue of the CSA's intentions, reasons, etc. I think error303 put it best
http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5702275 said:
The claim : The civil war pitted people of all backgrounds and skin colors against each other in combat.

The defense : There are several reported instances where as many as 3,000 black soldiers were found with the confederate army, and other reports of some small numbers of free black citizens within the confederate army.

The facts : While there is evidence of limited involvement of black soldiers participating in combat for the confederate army, the southern army was almost entirely composed of white males. Tohugh there is some historical documentation of several free black souther citizens participating in the confederate army, the majority of blacks were conscripted or sold and participated against their will.

So, basically, if you want to make the claim that there were blacks in the confederate Army, you're not completely lying, but you are by no means telling the whole story or conveying any sense of what was actually happening during the civil war.

Calling white guilt is just as bad as someone playing the race card. There is no guilt in an honest examination of history.
 
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