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Thread: I need some help, namely in the forms of laws/codes.

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    I need some help, namely in the forms of laws/codes.

    Okay, so in discussion with a friend of mine who purchased his first gun around the same time as I did, things began on the path to getting heated. I stopped things there and told him, find the laws, codes, etc to support what you're saying, I'll do the same.
    Here are the standpoints he came up with. Please provide me with the laws or codes either supporting or nullifying (is that the right word?).
    Thank you.
    1. You can NOT open carry with one in the chamber, unless you have your conceal permit.

    2. You can NOT drive with your gun in a holster on your hip, it MUST be in the passenger seat/dashboard. (I know there is a current thread about this, but I'd like things in one place)

    3. You MUST have documentation of purchasing your gun at ALL times if you are pulled/stopped by a LEO

    4. ALL guns MUST be registered in VA (He KNOWS because his was registered when he purchased it, and mine isn't legal if it wasn't registered)

    5. The law means nothing and the LEO can/will arrest you if you are doing/dont have these things, and the court WILL back the LEO up, and there is no person or group that will stand up for your rights, and even if there is that means nothing. (Ok, so not a law/code...but thoughts?)

    That's truely all I can remember at the moment, because I was begining to feel irritated and realized I needed to end the conversation then and there. I know there were one or two other things, and may remember them later.

    Thanks guys and gals

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    Okay, so in discussion with a friend of mine who purchased his first gun around the same time as I did, things began on the path to getting heated. I stopped things there and told him, find the laws, codes, etc to support what you're saying, I'll do the same.
    Here are the standpoints he came up with. Please provide me with the laws or codes either supporting or nullifying (is that the right word?).
    Thank you.
    1. You can NOT open carry with one in the chamber, unless you have your conceal permit.

    2. You can NOT drive with your gun in a holster on your hip, it MUST be in the passenger seat/dashboard. (I know there is a current thread about this, but I'd like things in one place)

    3. You MUST have documentation of purchasing your gun at ALL times if you are pulled/stopped by a LEO

    4. ALL guns MUST be registered in VA (He KNOWS because his was registered when he purchased it, and mine isn't legal if it wasn't registered)

    5. The law means nothing and the LEO can/will arrest you if you are doing/dont have these things, and the court WILL back the LEO up, and there is no person or group that will stand up for your rights, and even if there is that means nothing. (Ok, so not a law/code...but thoughts?)

    That's truely all I can remember at the moment, because I was begining to feel irritated and realized I needed to end the conversation then and there. I know there were one or two other things, and may remember them later.

    Thanks guys and gals
    You won't be able to cite any laws because they don't exist.

    Maybe your friend grew up in another state that had those restrictions and is carrying forward that in his memory. Another scenario is that some (un)knowledgeable store clerk told him all that and was full of BS!

    This last general assembly session the govenor signed into law that everyone (CHP and non-CHP) could carry their loaded gun in a secured container (glove box, center console, brief case, etc). In the past if you did not have a CHP you had to OC it in your vehicle which included in a holster on your hip.

    You can point him to this link for some law info: http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/VASL.pdf
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 10-17-2010 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    Okay, so in discussion with a friend...
    You know, fellas. There is one profession from who we have heard all of those comments. And, I am not referring to NRA instructors.

    I'll bet a $25 donation to VCDL that the friend's source is a cop. At the most, once removed--meaning the friend heard it from a friend who heard it from a cop.

    PS: I agree with 45acpForMe. No citations, because the laws do not exist. The closest one might be belt holster carry in a car. The statute is VA Code 18.2-308; it says something very specific about concealed weapons. The OPer does not say whether the contemplated carrier has a CHP, or whether the weapon is hidden from common observation.

    PSS: It occurs to me that my bet offer is not entirely fair. As we have learned, a disconcertingly large number of people get their "law" from cops.
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-17-2010 at 02:03 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    You win the discussion with your friend based on the fact that you [u]cannot[/] find anything in the Code of Virginia. Laws here are written to state the thngs that are illegal - not the stuff that you are "allowed" to do. If it's not written, it's not illegal.

    Sit back, relax and enjoy watching your friend scurry around trying to find the citations to "prove" his assertions. Do keep in mind it is considered impolite in some circles to sip your favorite beverage and eat your favorite snack while watching him scurry about - or at least impolite to do so without offering to share with him.

    Please let us know how long your friend hangs on to his belief in those ideas.

    stay safe.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Cite:

    Doug McKenzie: Yeah. OK, well, uh, we found, uh, this mouse in a bottle of YOUR BEER, eh. Like, we was at a party and, uh, a friend of ours - a COP - had some, and HE PUKED. And he said, uh, come here and get free beer or, uh, he'll press charges.


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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    Okay, so in discussion with a friend of mine
    Can you simply ask your friend where he got his information? Maybe share VCDL and OCDO ewith him as well? We need INFORMED gun owners out there. We all represent each other.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    I'm going to try to cover all the responses, as I have no yet figured out how to include multiple quotes.
    He has lived in VA around 15 years? He's from AZ orriginally.
    I have been to his "main gun store" and they seemed quite knowledgeable when I spoke to them. Perhaps he COULD have spoken to someone else?

    As for in the car, this is based on the carrier not having a CHP, but having their holster to where, if the LEO was not on their drivers side (therefore being blocked by the body), it would be visable. I actually spoke to a LEO about this, WHILE in my car with my gun holstered on my hip, and HIS response was "It's really in the intent. And if I came around or a partner came to the other side, it would be visable, so you're fine".

    Skidmark, you know a bit about my sense of humor. I just HAD to ask him for citations He actually told me "Fine with me because you want to say you know EVERYTHING about guns"...to which I calmly replied "I never said that, I just know that I've asked questions and gotten matching answers".

    Ed, his answers are from the people HE'S talked to, and when he studied CJ in school, and the like. I DID point him in the direction of both this site and VCDL, but once again, refer to the "what are groups going to do for you?" statement in the OP.

    Oh! Another thing, it does not matter if you've asked 8 different LEOs the exact same questions, and each one gave you the same answer, AND you talked to people more knowledgeable than you (ie. you guys) and got the SAME answer....you can and most likely WILL be arrested by a different LEO So be careful, please.

    I'm just waiting now, I will not bring up the topic with him any more unless he wishes to discuss things in a civilized manner and listen to my side as well. HOWEVER, I will remain vigilant in trying to get him aquainted with VCDL and OCDO!

  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    5. The law means nothing and the LEO can/will arrest you if you are doing/dont have these things, and the court WILL back the LEO up, and there is no person or group that will stand up for your rights, and even if there is that means nothing. (Ok, so not a law/code...but thoughts?)
    What everyone else said... plus:

    Do some looking around here for the Danbus stories. BMWAG who was illegally arrested (twice, I believe), and subsequently took home fairly large cash settlements from the offending police departments.

    Also, see the section of code we fondly call the Preemption Law. It basically says that no city or county can make up their own laws where guns are concerned, and not only that, but if someone sees it and they refuse to change, they can be sued, and the plaintiffs (the citizens doing the suing) can be awarded their legal costs and fees.

    Your debate may be short lived, as posted, there are no laws saying what you can do, just what you can't. Your friend will quickly grow tired of looking for that which does not exist, and may soon realize he is wrong, at which point he will probably change the subject.

    TFred

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    You should have directed him to my class that I taught today. I would have loved the opportunity to correct his misinformation.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    snipped, leaving only the questions...
    Grapeshot's answers appear in BLUE.

    1. You can NOT open carry with one in the chamber, unless you have your conceal permit.
    There is NO such restriction. You're friend will NOT be able to find such a cite because none exists.


    2. You can NOT drive with your gun in a holster on your hip, it MUST be in the passenger seat/dashboard. (I know there is a current thread about this, but I'd like things in one place)

    You may OC (no restriction) or CC with a CHP any where you are legally allowed to be.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    AND -

    C - 10. "Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel."
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308


    3. You MUST have documentation of purchasing your gun at ALL times if you are pulled/stopped by a LEO

    There is NO registration of guns in Virginia or proof of ownership required in Va.


    4. ALL guns MUST be registered in VA (He KNOWS because his was registered when he purchased it, and mine isn't legal if it wasn't registered)
    There is NO registration in Va. What your friend likely remembers is the process of getting a background check done through the VSP when he purchased through a FFL.

    5. The law means nothing and the LEO can/will arrest you if you are doing/dont have these things, and the court WILL back the LEO up, and there is no person or group that will stand up for your rights, and even if there is that means nothing. (Ok, so not a law/code...but thoughts?)

    "Under all is the law." Not all LEOs know the law, but if one so egregiously violates my rights and the law
    he can be expected to be sued.

    Best answer may be to offer him an invite to meet me and ride with me one Sat. .... After we eat, I''ll take him on one of our infamous tours.

    __________________________________________________ _____


    Municipalities cannot have laws more restrictive than the state (see the
    Virginia preemption statute) thereby making local laws that exceed the state code invalid.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    Also suspect that he is confusing what he has read that pertains to other states like California and applying that to Va. Tell him that a little knowledge is not only dangerous, but most often WRONG.

    Seriously, I would like to meet him with no argumentative attitude on my part - just nice and friendly. Could even make arrangements to take him to the range if he likes.

    Hope this helps.


    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-17-2010 at 08:19 PM. Reason: add and correct
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Everyone else is correct!
    To explain my answer, there is no way to talk reason to idiots. You need to know the laws, know how to respond to LEO's and that doesn't mean be especially nice. Be professional, direct and blunt.

    I'm in a minority I suppose because I'm not sure Danbus is the best subject to study. While he did win settlements he also hung a target on his back.

    If you want a foolproof way to avoid conflict with LEO's, better move to the moon. As I said, learn how to deal with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    [COLOR=navy] Best answer may be to offer him an invite to meet me and ride with me one Sat. .... After we eat, I''ll take him on one of our infamous tours.

    __________________________________________________ _____

    Tours?!?! I didn't get a tour! I'm going to pout now No, seriously...now I'm curious!

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    Tours?!?! I didn't get a tour! I'm going to pout now No, seriously...now I'm curious!
    OC Safari


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkdNPrcdAngl View Post
    Tours?!?! I didn't get a tour! I'm going to pout now No, seriously...now I'm curious!
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    OC Safari
    Hey, we do have FUN while spreading the gospel according to the RT. Rev. John Moses Browning as recorded and instructed by VCDL.

    InkdNPrcdAngl - we generally go somewhere and do something after breakfast each Sat. - maybe a carnival or farmers market to pass out GSL stickers, VCDL info and enjoy the sights n' sounds. Been to the Tea Party Convention, Richmond Festival on the James, Henrico Days, Forest Hill Park Farmers Market, Hanover Tomato Festival and Strawberry Festival in Ashland to name a few.

    Individual tickets for specific tours are very reasonable or you can acquire a season pass.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-17-2010 at 10:26 PM. Reason: correction
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Like Grapeshot said, they are fun but more important, they educate people. There is never any trouble. The closest I've seen was at the Ashland Strawberry Fair but no real problems, just warnings to keep it off RM campus.

    On a positive note, a vendor with an empty holster went back to his car and got his gun after talking to Curtis and I.
    Grapeshot and Skidmark got their pictures taken with an Ashland Cop who had his arm around each and trying to act as friendly as possible for the camera.

    From what you said, a morning with Grapeshot would do wonders for your friends knowledge base.
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-17-2010 at 10:48 PM.

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    MMMMM tomato samich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You know, fellas. There is one profession from who we have heard all of those comments. And, I am not referring to NRA instructors.

    I'll bet a $25 donation to VCDL that the friend's source is a cop. At the most, once removed--meaning the friend heard it from a friend who heard it from a cop.

    PS: I agree with 45acpForMe. No citations, because the laws do not exist. The closest one might be belt holster carry in a car. The statute is VA Code 18.2-308; it says something very specific about concealed weapons. The OPer does not say whether the contemplated carrier has a CHP, or whether the weapon is hidden from common observation.

    PSS: It occurs to me that my bet offer is not entirely fair. As we have learned, a disconcertingly large number of people get their "law" from cops.
    I agree with the rest of you that there is no reason to search for any laws, because you won't find any. The friend's search will end up with nothing as well. Keep us updated with what your "friend" uses to support his claims.

    As for what Citizen posted...please don't believe what he says about LEOs. I can assure you that what the "friend" posted is not even close to being logical and I am a LEO. I can't see any of my coworkers supporting any of the friend's suggestions that were mentioned, nor would they enforce laws that don't exist. Not only would it be almost impossible to do so, it would leave a LEO/department civilly, criminally, and professionally liable. Citizen, these threads would best be discussed if they stayed on topic, turning things around to make it your own anti-LEO movement is not what open carrying is about. It will make yourself lose credibility. Also, I agree that you should not get legal advice from police. Police are not expected to be lawyers (hell if I was expected to be, I would expect a lawyer paycheck), they are expected to know the laws well enough to enforce and bring the case to a magistrate which then goes to the Commonwealth's Attorney.

    I do encourage both the OP and his friend to read up on the laws, because although VA is not strict with gun laws, there are still some there. Be safe.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 10-18-2010 at 12:12 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    There is NO registration of guns in Virginia
    unless it's a machine gun.

  19. #19
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Every one of your friend's beliefs which you have outlined here is in error and one would hardly know where to start correcting them because I would wager that if he truly believes these statements, more than likely he believes other falsehoods as well. Falsehoods such as... you must retreat from a threat in Virginia, you may only use deadly force after the attack has commenced, or the open carry of a firearm can be construed as disturbing the peace regardless of one's actions.

    Other posters here have done a commendable job of giving you valid and correct information with which to counter your friend's arguments. But alas, there are those who are so entrenched in their misguided beliefs that no manner of truth and facts will make them budge from their stance. I have run into folks like this when discussing heated topics myself and it just gets frustrating when the facts are there in plain sight yet they refuse to accept or believe them for some reason.

    Just for kicks, try this. Invite him to join you for lunch one day (weekend is good for this). Don't say anything about firearms or carrying or Virginia laws. Just a friendly lunch. When he shows up, make sure you're carrying your sidearm openly and clearly visible, chambered of course, and proceed to your chosen establishment (you might want to test the waters first to make sure OC'ing is OK there). Now the fun begins.

    He will probably give you his reasons, as you've stated, why you shouldn't be doing what you're doing, but just continue as though nothing is out of the ordinary... which it isn't for those who OC. This might force him to see that there is nothing wrong with what you're doing and that nothing is likely to come of it.

    PS: It would be most interesting to hear where your friend got his information in the first place. I would love to hear the how and why of his beliefs.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 10-18-2010 at 11:46 AM.
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  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Misinformation and stupid don't just occur on one side of the fence. Over the weekend I ran across a vendor at a Flea Market. He was selling knives and assorted things. There were a bunch of little Mexican kids looking at the throwing stars.
    I noticed he had, switchblades, black Jacks and brass knuckles, in with the other knives.

    When the kids left I quietly told him he should stick them under the table or he was gonna get his backsides busted and have his inventory confiscated.

    He spent the next 5 minutes telling me how the switchblades and throwing stars were letter openers, the brass knuckles were paperweights and the blackjacks were heavy toys so kids could legally buy them.

    As I said earlier, I don't like to argue with idiots....I told him he must be right and went off to mind my own business.
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-18-2010 at 10:15 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Misinformation and stupid don't just occur on one side of the fence. Over the weekend I ran across a vendor at a Flea Market. He was selling knives and assorted things. There were a bunch of little Mexican kids looking at the throwing stars.
    I noticed he had, switchblades, black Jacks and brass knuckles, in with the other knives.

    When the kids left I quietly told him he should stick them under the table or he was gonna get his backsides busted and have his inventory confiscated.

    He spent the next 5 minutes telling me how the switchblades and throwing stars were letter openers, the brass knuckles were paperweights and the blackjacks were heavy toys so kids could legally buy them.

    As I said earlier, I don't like to argue with idiots....I told him he must be right and went off to mind my own business.
    For serious collectors and recivitists only.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    For serious collectors and recivitists only.
    I really try to be helpful Grape.

    If Novacop were at the range and I noticed he was holding his gun backwards..

    I'd intervene and tell him to take a deep breath, let half out and squeeze with the last digit of his thumb.

    He'd probably just jerk the trigger anyway.

  23. #23
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Wow your friend is 100%

    WRONG on every one. Does he work at a gun store?

    Remember this about arguments:

    It's like wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig likes it

    I have no dog in this fight. I unfortunately still reside in The Peoples Republic of Marylandistan
    Last edited by swinokur; 10-18-2010 at 11:14 AM.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    1. You can NOT open carry with one in the chamber, unless you have your conceal permit.

    2. You can NOT drive with your gun in a holster on your hip, it MUST be in the passenger seat/dashboard. (I know there is a current thread about this, but I'd like things in one place)

    3. You MUST have documentation of purchasing your gun at ALL times if you are pulled/stopped by a LEO

    4. ALL guns MUST be registered in VA (He KNOWS because his was registered when he purchased it, and mine isn't legal if it wasn't registered)

    5. The law means nothing and the LEO can/will arrest you if you are doing/dont have these things, and the court WILL back the LEO up, and there is no person or group that will stand up for your rights, and even if there is that means nothing. (Ok, so not a law/code...but thoughts?)
    What ? you should always carry ID with you.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    SNIP As for what Citizen posted...please don't believe what he says about LEOs. I can assure you that what the "friend" posted is not even close to being logical and I am a LEO. I can't see any of my coworkers supporting any of the friend's suggestions that were mentioned, nor would they enforce laws that don't exist. Not only would it be almost impossible to do so, it would leave a LEO/department civilly, criminally, and professionally liable.
    Yes, yes. Please do not believe Citizen, folks. Just believe your own memory.

    We've read the OCer reports where police said the owner of a seized gun needed to prove he was the owner in order to get it back.

    We've read the OCer reports where one of the things the cop told the OCer the cop had to make sure the gun was not stolen.

    We've read the OCer reports where...(you get the idea.)


    Now, as to NoVA cops in particular, lets not forget all the really cool, totally invented nonsense OCers have reported hearing from cops. Lets see.

    There were those OCers in Manassas who had ID illegally demanded of them, and were illegally ordered to illegally conceal their legally OCed handguns. That only took 130 VCDL members showing up at a city council meeting, and 90 more showing up at a later meeting--to get denials of wrong-doing from the police.

    There was ChinChin's wife who was threatened for not notifying the traffic stop cop that she was carrying.

    There was an OCer who was told during a traffic stop that getting out of the car while the holder of CC permit would get him shot (nevermind whether he actually had the gun on him, or had even left it at home.)

    There was the nonsense at Barnes & Noble in Alexandria. I forget the OCers username here. That police department used totally bogus rationale to illegally withhold FOIA information, too.

    There was the OCDO member traffic stopped in Springfield. The OCer that moved to participate in the Free State Project a while later.

    And, there was that OCer in Reston who was seized while walking to the store.

    Yep, a deep well of reliable information, that's our NoVA cops. Including the one who I quoted above. Selective memory or something, I guess.

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