Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Campus Carry at U-of-M....What Would It Take?

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    118

    Campus Carry at U-of-M....What Would It Take?

    I've been educated about the fact that the preemption statute does not apply to the University Of Michigan because the Regents Rules are really laws and that the entire shindig is pretty much out there on their own when they want to be.

    What would it take to get Universities brought back under the authority of the state? Is there no campus carry because nobody has bothered to files a lawsuit? Is filing and subsequently winning a lawsuit force the schools to fall in line with the rest of the state?

    I really hate having to completely disarm when I leave for school (which is most days) as I can't even leave my gun in the car in the parking lot. I'd love to see this nonsense come tumbling down.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by The Expert View Post
    What would it take to get Universities brought back under the authority of the state? Is there no campus carry because nobody has bothered to files a lawsuit? Is filing and subsequently winning a lawsuit force the schools to fall in line with the rest of the state?
    MCL 123.1102 would have to be modified to include a Campus or College as a unit of "Local Government".
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    If they aren't getting rid of PFZ's, and Royal Joke can't get them to change 1102, then its not likely that the colleges will be stopped from subverting Michigan law, and the constitution either.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    MCL 123.1102 would have to be modified to include a Campus or College as a unit of "Local Government".
    In fact such a law has been written and in committee. The language would include colleges/universities under preemption. But no movement on this law has taken place.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    No mension of K-12?

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    No mension of K-12?
    Name a K-12 school that has the power to create & enforce penal code.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    The clarification would serve to diffuse issues like the one I'm dealing with in Waterford, where they would look for any reason to oust you for being a responsible citizen and parent.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    If they aren't getting rid of PFZ's, and Royal Joke can't get them to change 1102, then its not likely that the colleges will be stopped from subverting Michigan law, and the constitution either.
    Technically they are not subverting the Constitution. At least not the MI Constitution. But only technically.

    OP, do you go to U of M? I do and have had to deal with this for some time now.

    We would need a lawsuit or Constitutional Amendment at this point. It would be "easier" to get the Regents to change their laws but fat chance with that.

    A simple statute would not do because the University would simply keep enforcing the ordinance, arrest the first carrier they found, and head for a test case while a poor chap loses his guns and right to carry and has to deal with the legal fees of the process. There is already case law that makes UM a special entity. Then the University might win their suit and it would all be for naught. Remember, this is a Constitutional issue. A simple lawsuit just has too much case law against us that grants UM special consideration. Would be too high a risk. I would rather pick at the low hanging fruits such as the fact that the ordinance is way too broad (can't drive through Ann Arbor without being on UM property and thus being illegal, this is not the most narrow regulation possible, etc etc) and start from there. First, not directly on campus. Then allow it on campus but not in classrooms, dorms, etc. Then allow in classrooms but not in dorms (not like anyone who lives in dorms can carry anyways). Etc etc.

    Just bringing universities under pre-emption wouldn't do because there are tons of universities in MI and as I hinted at earlier, UM is one of the few special ones (I think there are five) given special consideration. UM would just argue they aren't covered under the new legislation and point to the previous case law saying they have already been pointed out to be special and thus immune from the legislation.

    If the Constitution were amended to explicitly disallow UM from getting around pre-emption the possibility of UM resisting would be much much less given the case law around pre-emption.

    I have toyed with the idea of a broader suit. The University receives federal funding, yet it infringes on what is now a fundamental right. Alas, this is a pipe dream. The issue must be decided at the State level.

    But before all of that we need a much different kind of change, a cultural one. Politicians must get elected again, as must Supreme Court justices and District Attorneys. All of them would be willing to "fight for the safety of the people of Ann Arbor and the students at UM from the threat of violence blablabla".

    It's a tough one
    Last edited by Sefner; 10-18-2010 at 07:42 PM. Reason: clarity

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Sefner View Post
    A simple statute would not do because the University would simply keep enforcing the ordinance, arrest the first carrier they found, and head for a test case while a poor chap loses his guns and right to carry and has to deal with the legal fees of the process.
    If preemption was modified to specifically include Universities, I don't think such a case would make it past the preliminary hearing w/o getting booted.

    ...then again, if you get a Liberal Judge who sees the law and the Constitution as "living documents" which are open for judicial reinterpretation (read: re-writing) then you could be screwed.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    If preemption was modified to specifically include Universities, I don't think such a case would make it past the preliminary hearing w/o getting booted.

    ...then again, if you get a Liberal Judge who sees the law and the Constitution as "living documents" which are open for judicial reinterpretation (read: re-writing) then you could be screwed.
    I wish I could say you're right, but the University would muster all the legal resources it has in order to fight something like this. Anything they would think of would get used. It would be a huge mess. Ann Arbor is a backwards, crazy town and its heart and soul is UM.

    I think in the end the University would lose, but where would the end be? Six months when the AG steps in? 2 years for State SC? 5 years for SCOTUS?
    Last edited by Sefner; 10-18-2010 at 07:49 PM.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Would end tomorrow if people united and everyone carried anyhow. Sorta like traffic tickets. If everyone just stopped paying them the problem would just vaporize.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Would end tomorrow if people united and everyone carried anyhow. Sorta like traffic tickets. If everyone just stopped paying them the problem would just vaporize.
    Sort of like the war on drugs we're still fighting?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Sefner View Post
    I wish I could say you're right, but the University would muster all the legal resources it has in order to fight something like this. Anything they would think of would get used. It would be a huge mess. Ann Arbor is a backwards, crazy town and its heart and soul is UM.

    I think in the end the University would lose, but where would the end be? Six months when the AG steps in? 2 years for State SC? 5 years for SCOTUS?
    U of M DOES have a law school -- lots of free legal research labor.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    U of M DOES have a law school -- lots of free legal research labor.
    And I'm sure plenty of students would love to be able to list that they worked on a case that went to the MI Supreme Court on their resume...

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Sort of like the war on drugs we're still fighting?
    Exactly.

    Fighting the war on drugs is like a baby fighting its sleep.

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Name a K-12 school that has the power to create & enforce penal code.
    Some schools have established Law Enforcement Agencies, so they would be examples regarding enforcement. Also, most school districts relate/connect/base their "policies"/"rules" on MCLs... so although the power to create is absent, enforcement is possible either outright or by reference.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-20-2010 at 10:47 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Does anyone know if UofM's Weapon's Ordinance has been successfully or unsuccessfully applied to... ie someone charged with... possessing a pistol on campus since Michigan became a "shall issue" state?

    If it has been enforced, does anyone know if any of the Article X, sec 4 Weapon's Ordinance exceptions were attempted as a defense to the charges?
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-20-2010 at 10:21 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  18. #18
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SE, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,336
    Maybe just participate in some "long gun OC"...

    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-20101020-wpms


  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Exactly.

    Fighting the war on drugs is like a baby fighting its sleep.
    As a baby, my daughter slept maybe 2 hours a night... in 10-15 minute increments interspersed with hours where she would be wide awake, happy, and wondering why I didn't want to stay up with her from 12 midnight until 6am. So, some babies can fight the urge just as I think sometimes people can win a battle that is considered un-winnable by most.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    I was looking around on the Hillsdale College website because I know they don't accept any fed. or state subsidized student loans and I found this:



      • Q: Why doesn’t Hillsdale accept any federal or state taxpayer subsidies?
      • A: In 1975, the federal government said that Hillsdale had to sign a form stating that we did not discriminate on the basis of sex. Hillsdale College had never discriminated on any basis, and had never accepted federal taxpayer subsidies of any sort, so the College felt no obligation to comply, fearing that doing so would open the door to additional federal mandates and control. Our trustees pledged two things: first, that the College would continue its long-standing policy of non-discrimination, and second, that it would not accept any encroachments on its independence. The case went to court, and Hillsdale College won a partial victory, but the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals did rule that Hillsdale College was an “indirect recipient” of federal funding because of participation in federal grant and loan programs. In 1984, Grove City College in Pennsylvania fought and lost a similar legal battle. The case then went to the Supreme Court, and in Grove City v. Bell, it was determined that if even one student received a federal grant or loan, it made that institution a direct recipient of federal funds. To avoid the hassles of government control, Hillsdale College announced its decision to end participation in all federal financial aid programs in 1985. In 2007, Hillsdale announced that it would no longer accept State of Michigan taxpayer subsidies earmarked for student financial aid, thereby making the College completely independent of taxpayer support.
    In the wake of Heller and McDonald I wonder if the Grove City v. Bell decision could be used to our advantage.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 10-20-2010 at 11:35 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  21. #21
    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    118
    Sefner, I do go to the University of Michigan in Dearborn. I do not carry there.

    I was thinking of wearing my empty shoulder holster at all time instead of just when the Campus Carry people organize one of those open holster days. Putting it out there that there is a violation of rights going on.

    I decided against it though. My life as a full time student is much different than when I was making good money in real estate. I have pretty much zero time and very little discretionary funds. I simply am not willing to have a single instance of the Campus Police harassing me and demanding to search my car because my holster serves as "probable cause" in that it gives them the impression that I may have disarmed in my vehicle but still violated the law by having the pistol in the car on campus.

    Zero time, zero patience for these types of things.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I was looking around on the Hillsdale College website because I know they don't accept any fed. or state subsidized student loans and I found this:


    In the wake of Heller and McDonald I wonder if the Grove City v. Bell decision could be used to our advantage.
    It probably would be used to our advantage. A lot of case law could. Enough to win a case. But the question isn't can we win it, it's how much time and money do we want to spend on a case like this? I, like TheExpert, have an abundant amount of neither of these resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Does anyone know if UofM's Weapon's Ordinance has been successfully or unsuccessfully applied to... ie someone charged with... possessing a pistol on campus since Michigan became a "shall issue" state?

    If it has been enforced, does anyone know if any of the Article X, sec 4 Weapon's Ordinance exceptions were attempted as a defense to the charges?
    I am unaware of this occuring. I'm fairly certain that anyone stopped with a firearm on U of M property is let off with a warning (unless there is RS they indent to use it illegally, of course) for the very reason we talk here today, U of M is afraid of a test case.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •