No weapons allowed on company property ?

jmelvin · Oct 19, 2010

I agree DonTreadOnMeVa, this is one of the most important changes to me as it affects my daily life and my ability to protect myself coming and going from work. This legislation should not be limited to CHP holders as that would severely restrict the number of people it would help and is an arbitrary and vile restriction. Behind this piece of legislation in my priority list is the clarification that state entities are to be considered pre-empted from establishing their own rules on the carriage of firearms.

Grapeshot · Oct 19, 2010

TFred said:
I am very fortunate to have no personal experience with this... It is my understanding that if you resign, you cannot collect unemployment insurance. What about if they fire you for refusing a search?

TFred

If they fire you "for cause" (infraction of law, rule or policy), you would likely become ineligible for unemployment benefits. You of course can file an appeal.

SouthernBoy · Oct 19, 2010

peter nap said:
I think what you'll find is they do not have the right to break into the car or even force a search with you there.

What they DO have the right to do under Va Right to Work Laws, is fire an employee for any reason or no reason at all, that does not violate Civil Rights Laws.

Going along with company rules is always a personal decision everyone has to make for themselves. If the OP doesn't have any responsibilities to worry about, ignoring the rule or just resigning, may be the best route for him to follow.

Yes sir, I am very much aware of the fact that Virginia is an "employment at will" state. It is, however, interesting that they propose to employees that they reserve the right to search employee vehicles. Do you think this is just an effort at intimidation?

CRF250rider1000 · Oct 19, 2010

Put a safe in your vehicle. That should solve most of your problem.

Grapeshot · Oct 19, 2010

CRF250rider1000 said:
Put a safe in your vehicle. That should solve most of your problem.

I would submit that if they can force you to open your vehicle to be searched that would include a locked glove compartment, console OR a safe.

Still you test this by risking dismissal.

bmartinxd45 · Oct 19, 2010

fully_armed_biker said:
I would think that the case could be made that unless there is a policy in place (and published in an employee handbook, etc) at the time of the occurance that states, "All persons and their belongings entering this facility are subject to search," it is not with cause. Private property rights don't give an individual the right to search someone...you can't arbitrarily search someone simply because they are on your property, neither can a business, unless it is a condition of employment stated beforehand or with cause, as in the case of a shoplifter.

IANAL, and I guess it would take one well versed in labor laws to say definitively if that's correct.

I am sure to get slammed for this but what does IANAL mean? Oh and My company doesn't allow guns on the property either. I carry mine in the truck and lock it in the console but I have never questioned the rule. just figure the less I say the less likely they are to start watching me and want to do something about it. out of sight out of mind.

fully_armed_biker · Oct 19, 2010

bmartinxd45 said:
I am sure to get slammed for this but what does IANAL mean? Oh and My company doesn't allow guns on the property either. I carry mine in the truck and lock it in the console but I have never questioned the rule. just figure the less I say the less likely they are to start watching me and want to do something about it. out of sight out of mind.

No....no getting slammed for it. It means "I Am Not A Lawyer"

rlh2005 · Oct 19, 2010

My 2cents:

While a company's right to search your car is questionable, you need to make sure you're not inadvertently giving them the ability.

Do you, like myself, leave your keys unsecured at work (e.g, in their desk drawer, on the desk, in the pocket of their jacket hacking in common area, etc)? Do you leave your vehicle unlocked at work? Or have you told coworkers that can get stuff from your vehicle if needed?

As crazy as it sounds, someone might successfully argue these acts constitute implied consent for the employer to access your vehicle with the right combination of lawyer, judge, jury, etc.

DontTreadOnMeVa · Oct 19, 2010

rlh2005 said:
My 2cents:
Do you, like myself, leave your keys unsecured at work (e.g, in their desk drawer, on the desk, in the pocket of their jacket hacking in common area, etc)? Do you leave your vehicle unlocked at work? Or have you told coworkers that can get stuff from your vehicle if needed?

No, I dont make a habit of leaving my keys laying around or my truck, unlocked even when I don't have a firearm in it. Would be irresponsible to leave a firearm in a vehicle that is unlocked, and it might as well be unlocked if you leave your keys laying around. IMO

TFred · Oct 19, 2010

If you are willing to lose the job over this, you might consider taking a stand. You may ultimately lose, but if you set your position up right, you could potentially make some noise that might get heard by some legislators that would shine some light on how ridiculous it is to not have a good parking lot law on the books.

This is obviously a decision you would have to make for yourself, and very carefully. If you do decide to do that, I would strongly suggest you seek additional advice from those much more experienced in these matters than we few who post here. (Such as the VCDL legislative folks...)

TFred

45acpForMe · Oct 19, 2010

If any gun bill allowing them in parking lots would be killed maybe we shouldn't address it as a gun bill.

How about a bill that disallows any business from searching (or making a search a requirement of employment) any private property not brought into a building?

That way people could carry in their car and store it before going into their business and assuming the person is discrete about it the company couldn't force a search of the car. To fire someone they would most probably be fired for 1) not allowing the search or 2) finding something during the search against company policy.

For me a persons car/motorcycle/motorhome is "private" property that gives me rights too and no one should be able to search my "private" property without my permission and shouldn't be allowed to force my permission on a basis for employment.

This would allow responsible gun owners to carry and don't tell/don't ask whereas jackoffs that aren't discrete will still be found out and done away with. Unfortunately such a bill still wouldn't apply to military bases which I still have to disarm before entering.

My two cents!

TFred · Oct 19, 2010

45acpForMe said:
If any gun bill allowing them in parking lots would be killed maybe we shouldn't address it as a gun bill.

How about a bill that disallows any business from searching (or making a search a requirement of employment) any private property not brought into a building?

That way people could carry in their car and store it before going into their business and assuming the person is discrete about it the company couldn't force a search of the car. To fire someone they would most probably be fired for 1) not allowing the search or 2) finding something during the search against company policy.

For me a persons car/motorcycle/motorhome is "private" property that gives me rights too and no one should be able to search my "private" property without my permission and shouldn't be allowed to force my permission on a basis for employment.

This would allow responsible gun owners to carry and don't tell/don't ask whereas jackoffs that aren't discrete will still be found out and done away with. Unfortunately such a bill still wouldn't apply to military bases which I still have to disarm before entering.

My two cents!

This does sort of raise the question, what if an employer made it a condition of employment that you had to allow them to come to your home and search it anytime they wanted to?

Is that unreasonable? If it is, why is searching your car any less so?

TFred

45acpForMe · Oct 19, 2010

TFred said:
This does sort of raise the question, what if an employer made it a condition of employment that you had to allow them to come to your home and search it anytime they wanted to?

Is that unreasonable? If it is, why is searching your car any less so?

TFred

There are already privacy invasions required for condition of employment like drug tests. They want to search my urine?!?!

I think that there are some reasonable conditions where you can waive certain rights to get the job but there is no reason to void my private property rights with their private property rights.

I would really like "some" bill to make it through and allow law abiding carriers to carry to work without being disarmed at home because of corporate policy. I was appalled to see that last bill stripped and whittled down to almost apply to no one.

DontTreadOnMeVa · Oct 19, 2010

TFred said:
If you are willing to lose the job over this, you might consider taking a stand. You may ultimately lose, but if you set your position up right, you could potentially make some noise that might get heard by some legislators that would shine some light on how ridiculous it is to not have a good parking lot law on the books.

This is obviously a decision you would have to make for yourself, and very carefully. If you do decide to do that, I would strongly suggest you seek additional advice from those much more experienced in these matters than we few who post here. (Such as the VCDL legislative folks...)

TFred

Why should we have to go that route? We has the bill all but passed last time around, but was killed by the "death star" panel. They ignored the rules of the legislature and killed the bill. We had the votes for the bill per the rules, but not enough to make them follow the rules. We need to beat them over the head over and over gain, until the bill gets a fair shake...if it does, it will pass.

The bill needs to get passed, and it will if be make them give the bill a fair shot.

Grapeshot · Oct 19, 2010

TFred said:
snip.....what if an employer made it a condition of employment that you had to allow them to come to your home and search it anytime they wanted to?

Can't or don't want to imagine that. :uhoh:

That actually might well be legal via a signed employment contract - if you lived alone. Don't think that you (employee) could sign away the rights of the rest of your family or house partners though and that would severely limit the search.

peter nap · Oct 19, 2010

TFred said:
That makes sense. I wonder if there are any established guidelines on what is reasonable cause? What if the company asked to do daily strip searches of your person, and you refused and were fired? Surely no court would view that as a reasonable "cause". Where is that line between reasonable and unreasonable?

TFred

As Wylde pointed out, a lot has to do with who reviews your case and how the company responds.

It may have changed since I had employees but the way it used to work was that the employee lost his/her job through no fault of their own (Laid off, incapable of preforming the work, relocation,etc).

peter nap · Oct 19, 2010

45acpForMe said:
There are already privacy invasions required for condition of employment like drug tests. They want to search my urine?!?!

I think that there are some reasonable conditions where you can waive certain rights to get the job but there is no reason to void my private property rights with their private property rights.

I would really like "some" bill to make it through and allow law abiding carriers to carry to work without being disarmed at home because of corporate policy. I was appalled to see that last bill stripped and whittled down to almost apply to no one.

What you're missing is that they are only making that requirement ON COMPANY PROPERTY. If you park outside the fence, they can go pound sand.

If you read a lot of financing agreements, they have a break and enter clause in case repossession is necessary...yeah, that's right. They can break and enter your home to retrieve their property. It has stood up in court and it got so bad the General Assembly took the privilege away from rent to own companies. Other loan company's can still include it in the contract.

Face it...you give up rights everyday.

ElW75 · Oct 19, 2010

45acpForMe said:
How about a bill that disallows any business from searching (or making a search a requirement of employment) any private property not brought into a building?

I would love such a bill to be passed, however, for those who work on Federal property (military installations, other facilities), they still give up their rights by driving onto the property. This would have to run concurrent with a Federal regulation, which will never happen in the wake of the DoD's over-reactions to Ft. Hood.

fully_armed_biker · Oct 20, 2010

This thread has brought up an interesting question my wife and I were discussing last night, I wanted to get more input to see what others thought. My wife's company has a "No Firearms" policy (Although I've OC'd there a few times...actually standing and talking to the President and the Owner/CEO of her company in the reception area...less than 10 feet from the offending sign with the company's policies, one of the times...without any reaction from either.) In the case of a shared parking lot where more than one business is in a complex, and other businesses may not have any kind of policy regarding firearms, whose policy prevails? The reason this came up is because my wife and I are going to the gun show at the Beach this weekend to look for a small concealable gun for her to carry in her CC purse to and from work, leaving it locked in her truck during the day. The sign doesn't specifically mention the parking lot, nor does it mention employees...it simply says "No firearms allowed on the premises." She routinely gets into discussions, some heated, about politics, the 2nd Amendment, etc, with the President...a naturalized citizen born and raised in Austria and he is for stricter gun control...and they all know we carry openly and concealed. I've tried to convince my wife to ask him, "How'd that strict gun control work out for Austria when Hitler annexed it at the start of WWII?" But, she won't go there with him....:banghead:

peter nap · Oct 20, 2010

fully_armed_biker said:
This thread has brought up an interesting question my wife and I were discussing last night, I wanted to get more input to see what others thought. My wife's company has a "No Firearms" policy (Although I've OC'd there a few times...actually standing and talking to the President and the Owner/CEO of her company in the reception area...less than 10 feet from the offending sign with the company's policies, one of the times...without any reaction from either.) In the case of a shared parking lot where more than one business is in a complex, and other businesses may not have any kind of policy regarding firearms, whose policy prevails? The reason this came up is because my wife and I are going to the gun show at the Beach this weekend to look for a small concealable gun for her to carry in her CC purse to and from work, leaving it locked in her truck during the day. The sign doesn't specifically mention the parking lot, nor does it mention employees...it simply says "No firearms allowed on the premises." She routinely gets into discussions, some heated, about politics, the 2nd Amendment, etc, with the President...a naturalized citizen born and raised in Austria and he is for stricter gun control...and they all know we carry openly and concealed. I've tried to convince my wife to ask him, "How'd that strict gun control work out for Austria when Hitler annexed it at the start of WWII?" But, she won't go there with him....:banghead:

The real problems are in lots dedicated to one business. That's their turf.
A shared lot shouldn't be a problem unless there are assigned spaces. Even then it shouldn't be a problem unless you make it one.

Sometimes in our zest to stay legal we shoot ourselves in the foot. I normally don't discuss anything illegal or even close...but

If you lock it in the car and keep your mouth shut, the odds are about the same as being struck by a meteorite of getting caught.

Same for concealed without a permit. I had my permit for about ten years before I let it expire. I never had it checked.
I've never had my car searched.

The problems start when you make a show of it. My son's company has a no guns policy that wasn't really enforced. There was an employee there (And he posted about it here) who just had to walk around bragging about his rights and how he was going to keep the gun in his car no matter what the company said.

Needless to say, he isn't working at his $90,000.00 a year job anymore and the company is strictly enforcing the policy for everyone.
Then he came here and cried the blues. Stupid people shouldn't complain.

The parking lot shouldn't be an issue if your wife doesn't make it one.
If she does, even if they don't have complete control of the lot, they can still fire your wife if they want to. Labor laws in Va. favor the employer.

No weapons allowed on company property ?

Founder's Club Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Newbie

Regular Member

Newbie

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Accomplished Advocate

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate