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Thread: Thoughts about meaning of student in RCW 9.41.280 3(e)

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    Question Thoughts about meaning of student in RCW 9.41.280 3(e)

    So another post made me wonder about the way 9.41.280 3(e) is worded. In part it states that firearms are not allowed on school grounds....blah, blah, blah.... except by

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;


    One other note, what exactly does "secured within an attended vehicle" mean. I don't think the firearm can be more secure in my car than in my holster attached to my belt.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    My opinion of "student" would be one who attends class at the school in discussion.

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    IANAL but I do rely on section (f) everyday I go to work.

    I agree that in this case "Student" is somebody attending classes at the school in question.

    f & g, yes, I read it that the firearm must remain inside the vehicle while within that 1000 feet crime-spre.... errr gun-free zone around all schools. You have the options of leaving somebody in the vehicle with the firearm or to conceal it from view and lock the vehicle. This is only valid if you have a legitimate reason to be on school grounds in the first place and you poses a CPL.

    A firearm would not be secured sitting on the seat next to an open window, but yes in a holster should be considered secured.

    So if you have a CPL and the firearm stays secured in the vehicle you can take it onto the school grounds parking lot while conducting legitimate business with the school. Notice this does not extend to anybody under the age of 18 or students of any age.

    again IANAL and YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzin View Post
    IANAL but I do rely on section (f) everyday I go to work.
    As do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzin View Post
    I agree that in this case "Student" is somebody attending classes at the school in question.
    That is how I am thinking too, which I do not care for. If the legislative intent was to not disarm parents why would they write it in a way that appears to disarm a parent picking a kid up from a sporting event/practice that happens to be on school grounds.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    So another post made me wonder about the way 9.41.280 3(e) is worded. In part it states that firearms are not allowed on school grounds....blah, blah, blah.... except by

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;


    One other note, what exactly does "secured within an attended vehicle" mean. I don't think the firearm can be more secure in my car than in my holster attached to my belt.
    I think as far as picking up or dropping off a child at a sporting event on school grounds, the important thing is that you are picking up a student (i.e. - not staying to watch the entire game) and that you are on a school ground. Section 1 states that it doesn't even have to be your classic school grounds for this statute to apply, so long as it's being used exclusively for school use. So, you either stay in the car with it in your holster, or you store it concealed in the car and get out of the car without it.

    As far as "secured within an attended vehicle", I read it as leaving it how you are legally allowed to carry it in your car at any other venue. If you leave it sitting in your console, fine. On your belt? Sure. Someone else in the car holding onto it without a CPL? No. Likewise, sitting unconcealed on the front seat with someone else in the car that doesn't have a CPL? Not ok.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    So another post made me wonder about the way 9.41.280 3(e) is worded. In part it states that firearms are not allowed on school grounds....blah, blah, blah.... except by

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;


    One other note, what exactly does "secured within an attended vehicle" mean. I don't think the firearm can be more secure in my car than in my holster attached to my belt.
    Definition of a Student, pretty simple, a child that is registered and attending school.

    There is a provision as you can read that with a CPL you can pick up and drop off a student and then it provides for securing your weapon with in the vehicle while you are out of the vehicle. Being secured with in the vehicle could mean either with the doors locked along with being out of sight or being locked with in a vehicle and the doors locked out of sight, I purchased a lock box to ensure a greater amount of security for the weapon, not so much for the law but to protect my investment.

    If someone is trying to find a way to carry other then this as to go to a sporting event and wait for your child while armed is looking for trouble and will find it.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    It actually does seem to me to be a bit vague. For example my daughter plays soccer on Saturdays at a school in her district, but it's not a school league. Now granted, I stay for the game, so the gun has to be locked up, but it is just a touch confusing. I wish there was some way around this nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student.
    IANAL, but the law does not specify that the student must attend the school in question. It would heavily imply that the student would have a legitimate reason for being on grounds and so you would, in turn, have a legitimate reason for picking up or dropping off.

    In my opinion paragraph (e) is intended to allow legally armed parents to briefly enter school grounds to pick up or drop off their children without having to go through extra steps of disarming themselves ahead of time.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    The pretext of the RCW is

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    To allow one to pick up and drop off a student they make an allowance for those who posses a CPL,

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    It is clear to me anyways it is the intent of the RCW to keep firearms off of school property unless otherwise provided for not to be walking around inside or outside the school.

    Trying to find a way around the wording or in an attempt to convince someone or themselves this type of activity is lawful gives fuel to the anti's to exploit the pro gun group.

    Would I like to be able to carry everywhere 24/7 you bet and maybe someday we will be able to but for now we have to work through the process and obey the laws along the way.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Cite please? Just exactly where is ANYONE asking about "walking around inside or outside the school"?!?

    Joe's question was very plainly stated as:

    "What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;"

    His concern is NOT about walking around armed on schools grounds. His concern is if the exception still applies while picking up a student at a school location other than that school which they are enrolled in. It it a very valid question.
    You are jumping to conclusions here NavyLt as I was responding to the issue not just what the question the OP presented.
    Note did I quote Joe or mention his name in my reply, it encompassed the topic.

    It is starting to look like you are wanting to engage a conflict not about the topic but with me, maybe it is time to check yourself.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Question asked by the Honorable Linda Smith Dist 18.
    Does "exclusively" mean prolonged exclusive use as when a school rents a building
    for an extended period solely for school activities, like an off campus classroom, or
    does it include sporadic use of a multi-use facility such as the Kingdome during the
    football playoffs?

    Attorney General's answer:
    We conclude that the term "used exclusively" refers to uses where the school or schools have sole possession, control, or use of an area of a facility. It is not limited by the duration of the use.

    The language of the House amendment was apparently intended to encompass the lease of athletic facilities included in the Senate version (which by their nature might be used only on a "sporadic" basis) and to broaden the provision to also include other facilities used exclusively by schools. The amendatory language expanded the prohibition to all facilities, and areas of facilities, regardless of the nature of the schools' use or the means by which the possession of the facilities is obtained.
    For these reasons, we believe the term "used exclusively" in RCW 9.41.280 refers to sole
    use, possession, or control of a facility, regardless of the duration of the use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    You are jumping to conclusions here NavyLt as I was responding to the issue not just what the question the OP presented.
    Note did I quote Joe or mention his name in my reply, it encompassed the topic.

    It is starting to look like you are wanting to engage a conflict not about the topic but with me, maybe it is time to check yourself.


    Dude,

    How about just discussing the topic? Joe wants to pick up his kid at a school he doesn't currently attend.

    My opinion of the OP's question is that if his kid is attending a school and is at a different school for a school function, that kid is a student. Otherwise he wouldn't be at the school in question. Therefore Joe can pick up his kid. Do I have any court decisions backing up my opinion? Nope. But it seems to make sense to me and so far I haven't seen any opinions suggesting otherwise either.
    Last edited by heresolong; 10-19-2010 at 03:55 PM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    Dude,

    How about just discussing the topic? Joe wants to pick up his kid at a school he doesn't currently attend.

    My opinion of the OP's question is that if his kid is attending a school and is at a different school for a school function, that kid is a student. Otherwise he wouldn't be at the school in question. Therefore Joe can pick up his kid. Do I have any court decisions backing up my opinion? Nope. But it seems to make sense to me and so far I haven't seen any opinions suggesting otherwise either.
    Dude it is on topic and now where did Joe post in the thread stating he wanted to pick up his child from a different school (like it would matter)
    You have added a twist that was not brought up but commend someone else ensuring there was no misunderstand in what I wrote (note it did not accuse anyone of carrying in our outside a school building)

    Joe can pickup and drop off his kid at any school function regardless of he is a student at the school or not, it says "student" he is however not able to carry upon the school grounds and stick around waiting for the event to end.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-19-2010 at 11:01 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    OK. So my point to this thread was not to ask if it was OK for me to pick up my kid. If you read the OP it came into my thoughts due to another post on the boards. I already have my opinion of it, which is the same as you will read below and apparently the consensus, and posted this to get other opinions and bring to light what I felt may cause people to inadvertently break the law.

    I asked a retired deputy sheriff, hold the flaming, who is a SO at one of the schools at the district I work for. He knew the laws right off the bat and is very pro-carry, to the point he stated that he has no problem with a LAC walking down the street carrying a machine gun if they want because that is not who he worries about.

    Anyway he stated that unless it is a school function the pistol must stay in the vehicle. Football practice for the boys and girls club that happens to be on school grounds is not covered under .280 3(e). If it is a school authorized function then by all means exit the vehicle with the pistol but only for the time needed to pick up or drop off said student. He also stated that the student does not have to be your child.
    Last edited by joeroket; 10-19-2010 at 07:39 PM.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Anyway he stated that unless it is a school function the pistol must stay in the vehicle. Football practice for the boys and girls club that happens to be on school grounds is not covered under .280 3(e). If it is a school authorized function then by all means exit the vehicle with the pistol but only for the time needed to pick up or drop off said student. He also stated that the student does not have to be your child.
    Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
    With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.
    Last edited by BigDave; 10-19-2010 at 11:05 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Well, great, there you go, that's what you get for asking a retired deputy sheriff!.... Oh, wait, I tend to think his answer is 100% spot on... never mind!
    Thats why I asked this particular one.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
    With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.
    Dave, are you saying that you can never leave your vehicle while carrying on school campus?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Do I see one of these about to occur?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
    With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.
    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Dave, are you saying that you can never leave your vehicle while carrying on school campus?
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack / inappropriate
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack / inappropriate
    Nice response to an honest question.
    Last edited by joeroket; 10-20-2010 at 03:18 PM.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    I asked a retired deputy sheriff, hold the flaming, who is a SO at one of the schools at the district I work for. He knew the laws right off the bat and is very pro-carry, to the point he stated that he has no problem with a LAC walking down the street carrying a machine gun if they want because that is not who he worries about.

    Anyway he stated that unless it is a school function the pistol must stay in the vehicle. Football practice for the boys and girls club that happens to be on school grounds is not covered under .280 3(e). If it is a school authorized function then by all means exit the vehicle with the pistol but only for the time needed to pick up or drop off said student. He also stated that the student does not have to be your child.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
    With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.
    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Dave, are you saying that you can never leave your vehicle while carrying on school campus?
    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Nice response to an honest question.
    Not so sure it was an honest question as it is more in line with just wanting to be argumentative.

    I stated
    • Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
    • With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.

    basically states if you are going to leave your vehicle while picking up or dropping off a student then leave your weapon secured and out of sight inside the vehicle as one officers view point will not be the same as another or department for that fact, so unless you are willing to take the chance of being cited, leave it in the vehicle as described.

    This has been a subject of a coupe threads on this forum to where some felt it is their right to carry at a sporting event since they are there to pick up their children and that will get one into deep do do.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    The pretext of the RCW is

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    To allow one to pick up and drop off a student they make an allowance for those who posses a CPL,

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    It is clear to me anyways it is the intent of the RCW to keep firearms off of school property unless otherwise provided for not to be walking around inside or outside the school.

    Trying to find a way around the wording or in an attempt to convince someone or themselves this type of activity is lawful gives fuel to the anti's to exploit the pro gun group.

    Would I like to be able to carry everywhere 24/7 you bet and maybe someday we will be able to but for now we have to work through the process and obey the laws along the way.
    Dave,
    I am not seeing the part where you have to leave your pistol locked in the car if you get out. 3(e) seems pretty clear. If you have your CPL, you can carry concealed to pick up or drop off your student.

    (f) and (g) read you have to leave it in your car if "conducting legitimate business at the school.

    I routinely get out of my car and pick my son up at the front doors. I do not cross the big red line designating the entrance to the building, but I AM picking up or dropping off my student, so carry concealed while doing so. I also walk my son to and from school. I do not have a car then. But the law says as long as I am dropping off or picking him up and have the permit I can do so with the weapon concealed on my person. I have every intention of protecting both myself and him on the way to and from school. As well, if we are riding our bikes to school, I also do not have a car. I drop him off, make sure he locks his bike and he goes in the school and I ride home. I am utilizing the law that says I can carry concealed while picking up or dropping him off at school.

    The way I read (f) and (g) is if I am going to go inside and conduct business within the school IE: anything other than just picking up or dropping off, I need to lock the pistol in the car as described, and I do so.

    If I know ahead of time I need to go inside to conduct legitimate business, I make sure to take the car.

    Separately, and not directed at David:
    Originally Posted by joeroket
    I asked a retired deputy sheriff, hold the flaming, who is a SO at one of the schools at the district I work for. He knew the laws right off the bat and is very pro-carry, to the point he stated that he has no problem with a LAC walking down the street carrying a machine gun if they want because that is not who he worries about.

    Anyway he stated that unless it is a school function the pistol must stay in the vehicle. Football practice for the boys and girls club that happens to be on school grounds is not covered under .280 3(e). If it is a school authorized function then by all means exit the vehicle with the pistol but only for the time needed to pick up or drop off said student. He also stated that the student does not have to be your child.
    This is my interpretation as well and what I practice.
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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Where does the law limit it to concealed carry?
    LT,
    You make a good point. It does say you may only carry to and from school if you have been issued a CPL, but it does NOT specifically state you must concealed carry.

    It would seem to make sense that laws would be written to be clearly understood by the average citizens, in order to obey them. But this forum is constantly full of slightly different interpretations of the laws and debated all the time.

    It's a wonder more people don't run afoul of the RCW's.

    Thank you for the clarification.
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n15wb View Post
    Dave,
    I am not seeing the part where you have to leave your pistol locked in the car if you get out. 3(e) seems pretty clear. If you have your CPL, you can carry concealed to pick up or drop off your student...

    Do to the length of the post,to see his full text click here
    As with anything in life everyone gets to make their choices as they will either benefit or not.

    Reading the law, It does appears that one can carry while picking up or dropping of a student at school.
    "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    Now what is the definition of "picking up and dropping off a student"?

    • Is it walking to where ever they are or are going, say on the football/baseball field?
    • Is it In the parking lot only?
    • How long would be reasonable, a minute or longer?

    We know one thing we will not decide this definition and who will? the court or jury will. We just seen first hand on the issue with Josh and how it has came out thus far (hopefully it will be overturned) and all the issues he has had to deal with.

    The requirement according to law is just to have a CPL not that the weapon has to be concealed stated you do, why is that is there something telling you maybe you shouldn't?
    Could it be
    RCW 9.41.270(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
    I know concealed carry right, well sometimes they do come uncovered and if it is the law then why not open carry?

    Yet again this RCW is likely bite someone in the hind quarters and what jury would not agree with you today?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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