Thoughts about meaning of student in RCW 9.41.280 3(e)

So another post made me wonder about the way 9.41.280 3(e) is worded. In part it states that firearms are not allowed on school grounds....blah, blah, blah.... except by

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

(g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

One other note, what exactly does "secured within an attended vehicle" mean. I don't think the firearm can be more secure in my car than in my holster attached to my belt.

My opinion of "student" would be one who attends class at the school in discussion.

IANAL but I do rely on section (f) everyday I go to work.

I agree that in this case "Student" is somebody attending classes at the school in question.

f & g, yes, I read it that the firearm must remain inside the vehicle while within that 1000 feet crime-spre.... errr gun-free zone around all schools. You have the options of leaving somebody in the vehicle with the firearm or to conceal it from view and lock the vehicle. This is only valid if you have a legitimate reason to be on school grounds in the first place and you poses a CPL.

A firearm would not be secured sitting on the seat next to an open window, but yes in a holster should be considered secured.

So if you have a CPL and the firearm stays secured in the vehicle you can take it onto the school grounds parking lot while conducting legitimate business with the school. Notice this does not extend to anybody under the age of 18 or students of any age.

again IANAL and YMMV

Rizzin said:

IANAL but I do rely on section (f) everyday I go to work.

Click to expand...

As do I.

Rizzin said:

I agree that in this case "Student" is somebody attending classes at the school in question.

Click to expand...

That is how I am thinking too, which I do not care for. If the legislative intent was to not disarm parents why would they write it in a way that appears to disarm a parent picking a kid up from a sporting event/practice that happens to be on school grounds.

joeroket said:

So another post made me wonder about the way 9.41.280 3(e) is worded. In part it states that firearms are not allowed on school grounds....blah, blah, blah.... except by

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

(g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

One other note, what exactly does "secured within an attended vehicle" mean. I don't think the firearm can be more secure in my car than in my holster attached to my belt.

Click to expand...

I think as far as picking up or dropping off a child at a sporting event on school grounds, the important thing is that you are picking up a student (i.e. - not staying to watch the entire game) and that you are on a school ground. Section 1 states that it doesn't even have to be your classic school grounds for this statute to apply, so long as it's being used exclusively for school use. So, you either stay in the car with it in your holster, or you store it concealed in the car and get out of the car without it.

As far as "secured within an attended vehicle", I read it as leaving it how you are legally allowed to carry it in your car at any other venue. If you leave it sitting in your console, fine. On your belt? Sure. Someone else in the car holding onto it without a CPL? No. Likewise, sitting unconcealed on the front seat with someone else in the car that doesn't have a CPL? Not ok.

joeroket said:

So another post made me wonder about the way 9.41.280 3(e) is worded. In part it states that firearms are not allowed on school grounds....blah, blah, blah.... except by

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

(g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

One other note, what exactly does "secured within an attended vehicle" mean. I don't think the firearm can be more secure in my car than in my holster attached to my belt.

Click to expand...

Definition of a Student, pretty simple, a child that is registered and attending school.

There is a provision as you can read that with a CPL you can pick up and drop off a student and then it provides for securing your weapon with in the vehicle while you are out of the vehicle. Being secured with in the vehicle could mean either with the doors locked along with being out of sight or being locked with in a vehicle and the doors locked out of sight, I purchased a lock box to ensure a greater amount of security for the weapon, not so much for the law but to protect my investment.

If someone is trying to find a way to carry other then this as to go to a sporting event and wait for your child while armed is looking for trouble and will find it.

It actually does seem to me to be a bit vague. For example my daughter plays soccer on Saturdays at a school in her district, but it's not a school league. Now granted, I stay for the game, so the gun has to be locked up, but it is just a touch confusing. I wish there was some way around this nonsense.

joeroket said:

What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student.

Click to expand...

IANAL, but the law does not specify that the student must attend the school in question. It would heavily imply that the student would have a legitimate reason for being on grounds and so you would, in turn, have a legitimate reason for picking up or dropping off.

In my opinion paragraph (e) is intended to allow legally armed parents to briefly enter school grounds to pick up or drop off their children without having to go through extra steps of disarming themselves ahead of time.

The pretext of the RCW is

(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

(a) Any firearm;

To allow one to pick up and drop off a student they make an allowance for those who posses a CPL,

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

It is clear to me anyways it is the intent of the RCW to keep firearms off of school property unless otherwise provided for not to be walking around inside or outside the school.

Trying to find a way around the wording or in an attempt to convince someone or themselves this type of activity is lawful gives fuel to the anti's to exploit the pro gun group.

Would I like to be able to carry everywhere 24/7 you bet and maybe someday we will be able to but for now we have to work through the process and obey the laws along the way.

NavyLT said:

Cite please? Just exactly where is ANYONE asking about "walking around inside or outside the school"?!?

Joe's question was very plainly stated as:

"What if you are picking up your child from a sporting event that is on school grounds but not the school/district your child is a student. If this is the case must the firearm stay inside the vehicle so you fall under section 3 (f) or (g) which state;"

His concern is NOT about walking around armed on schools grounds. His concern is if the exception still applies while picking up a student at a school location other than that school which they are enrolled in. It it a very valid question.

Click to expand...

You are jumping to conclusions here NavyLt as I was responding to the issue not just what the question the OP presented.
Note did I quote Joe or mention his name in my reply, it encompassed the topic.

It is starting to look like you are wanting to engage a conflict not about the topic but with me, maybe it is time to check yourself.

Question asked by the Honorable Linda Smith Dist 18.
Does "exclusively" mean prolonged exclusive use as when a school rents a building
for an extended period solely for school activities, like an off campus classroom, or
does it include sporadic use of a multi-use facility such as the Kingdome during the
football playoffs?

Attorney General's answer:
We conclude that the term "used exclusively" refers to uses where the school or schools have sole possession, control, or use of an area of a facility. It is not limited by the duration of the use.

The language of the House amendment was apparently intended to encompass the lease of athletic facilities included in the Senate version (which by their nature might be used only on a "sporadic" basis) and to broaden the provision to also include other facilities used exclusively by schools. The amendatory language expanded the prohibition to all facilities, and areas of facilities, regardless of the nature of the schools' use or the means by which the possession of the facilities is obtained.
For these reasons, we believe the term "used exclusively" in RCW 9.41.280 refers to sole
use, possession, or control of a facility, regardless of the duration of the use.

BigDave said:

You are jumping to conclusions here NavyLt as I was responding to the issue not just what the question the OP presented.
Note did I quote Joe or mention his name in my reply, it encompassed the topic.

It is starting to look like you are wanting to engage a conflict not about the topic but with me, maybe it is time to check yourself.

Click to expand...

Dude,

How about just discussing the topic? Joe wants to pick up his kid at a school he doesn't currently attend.

My opinion of the OP's question is that if his kid is attending a school and is at a different school for a school function, that kid is a student. Otherwise he wouldn't be at the school in question. Therefore Joe can pick up his kid. Do I have any court decisions backing up my opinion? Nope. But it seems to make sense to me and so far I haven't seen any opinions suggesting otherwise either.

heresolong said:

Dude,

How about just discussing the topic? Joe wants to pick up his kid at a school he doesn't currently attend.

My opinion of the OP's question is that if his kid is attending a school and is at a different school for a school function, that kid is a student. Otherwise he wouldn't be at the school in question. Therefore Joe can pick up his kid. Do I have any court decisions backing up my opinion? Nope. But it seems to make sense to me and so far I haven't seen any opinions suggesting otherwise either.

Click to expand...

Dude it is on topic and now where did Joe post in the thread stating he wanted to pick up his child from a different school (like it would matter)
You have added a twist that was not brought up but commend someone else ensuring there was no misunderstand in what I wrote (note it did not accuse anyone of carrying in our outside a school building)

Joe can pickup and drop off his kid at any school function regardless of he is a student at the school or not, it says "student" he is however not able to carry upon the school grounds and stick around waiting for the event to end.

OK. So my point to this thread was not to ask if it was OK for me to pick up my kid. If you read the OP it came into my thoughts due to another post on the boards. I already have my opinion of it, which is the same as you will read below and apparently the consensus, and posted this to get other opinions and bring to light what I felt may cause people to inadvertently break the law.

I asked a retired deputy sheriff, hold the flaming, who is a SO at one of the schools at the district I work for. He knew the laws right off the bat and is very pro-carry, to the point he stated that he has no problem with a LAC walking down the street carrying a machine gun if they want because that is not who he worries about.

Anyway he stated that unless it is a school function the pistol must stay in the vehicle. Football practice for the boys and girls club that happens to be on school grounds is not covered under .280 3(e). If it is a school authorized function then by all means exit the vehicle with the pistol but only for the time needed to pick up or drop off said student. He also stated that the student does not have to be your child.

joeroket said:

Anyway he stated that unless it is a school function the pistol must stay in the vehicle. Football practice for the boys and girls club that happens to be on school grounds is not covered under .280 3(e). If it is a school authorized function then by all means exit the vehicle with the pistol but only for the time needed to pick up or drop off said student. He also stated that the student does not have to be your child.

Click to expand...

Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.

NavyLT said:

Well, great, there you go, that's what you get for asking a retired deputy sheriff!.... Oh, wait, I tend to think his answer is 100% spot on... never mind!

Click to expand...

Thats why I asked this particular one. :banana:

BigDave said:

Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.

Click to expand...

Dave, are you saying that you can never leave your vehicle while carrying on school campus?

Do I see one of these about to occur?

BigDave said:

Pretty much what I have said with the exception of leaving the vehicle with your gun as I am sure this will vary from Officer or Department to another.
With this portion of interpretation you may well find defending yourself in court.

Click to expand...

joeroket said:

Dave, are you saying that you can never leave your vehicle while carrying on school campus?

Click to expand...

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Personal attack / inappropriate