Claremont police are scary

Fallschirjmäger · Oct 30, 2010

"I saw a black youth walking down the road wearing a hoodie, I'm pretty sure he was on his way to commit a burlglary"
"I saw this white dude walking down the road with a rope, I'm pretty sure he was on his way to a lynching."
"I saw this oriental guy walking down the road with a calculator, I'm pretty sure he was on his way to do some trigonometry"
"I saw a man walking down the road holding the hand of a 3yr old boy, I'm pretty sure he's a pedophile."
"I saw a man walking down the road holding a gasoline can, I'm pretty sure he was on his way to commit arson."

I could report any of those and NONE of them would provide meet the standard of reasonable suspicion.

The courts have ruled that hunches, gut instincts, and "... I have a feeling..." Do Not meet the standard required for reasonable suspicion.

LilRedMeanie · Nov 5, 2010

NewHampshireNative2005 said:
From what I have been told your firearm was half in your paints with only a small part sticking out of your waist band. At that time the officer then asked you for your permit because it looked concealed. I have been ubable to find a law stating how much of the firearm must be visible to be classifield as Open carry vs. Concealed carry.

It is my understanding that if you are carrying your gun "gangster style" I.E. Just shoved into your waist band with only the top hanging out, it IS concealed carry. Same as if you bought a concealed carry holster for inside the waist band, it carries the SAME way. Only the top hangs out. THIS IS CONCEALED CARRY. Therefore, the cop had every right, in my opinion, to ask you (Mrgrn) for your permit AND ID to check to see who you are.

LilRedMeanie · Nov 5, 2010

Mrgrn said:
i have my pistol in my pant belt area i had no jacket.

Look at the way you wrote this, then you say you had it in a holster later on? What's the real story here bud?

Grapeshot · Nov 5, 2010

LilRedMeanie said:
It is my understanding that if you are carrying your gun "gangster style" I.E. Just shoved into your waist band with only the top hanging out, it IS concealed carry. Same as if you bought a concealed carry holster for inside the waist band, it carries the SAME way. Only the top hangs out. THIS IS CONCEALED CARRY. Therefore, the cop had every right, in my opinion, to ask you (Mrgrn) for your permit AND ID to check to see who you are.

Cite please.

Carrying a gun either OC or CC does NOT create RAS, which is required under NH stop and identify law.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LIX/594/594-2.htm

LilRedMeanie · Nov 5, 2010

Grapeshot said:
Cite please.

Carrying a gun either OC or CC does NOT create RAS, which is required under NH stop and identify law.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LIX/594/594-2.htm

I don't need to cite anything. It's common sense. You go to the store looking at holsters. There's one that tucks INSIDE your waist band, where only the top hangs out of your pants. CONCEALED CARRY. So, it would be the SAME THING if you were carrying your gun in your pants the same style with or without the holster. Concealed carry.

Grapeshot · Nov 5, 2010

LilRedMeanie said:
I don't need to cite anything. It's common sense. You go to the store looking at holsters. There's one that tucks INSIDE your waist band, where only the top hangs out of your pants. CONCEALED CARRY. So, it would be the SAME THING if you were carrying your gun in your pants the same style with or without the holster. Concealed carry.

So called "common sense" doesn't replace the law and doesn't meet the standard here - rules of OCDO.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

If neither statute law nor case law support your premise, then it is flawed.

Inside the waistband (IWB) holsters are most assuredly NOT concealed in a vast majority of states.

The question is not how do you feel about it, but what is the law. If you don't know than say so. The question relating to NH law was legitimate and stands.

nhsig220 · Nov 6, 2010

Grapeshot said:
So called "common sense" doesn't replace the law and doesn't meet the standard here - rules of OCDO.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

If neither statute law nor case law support your premise, then it is flawed.

Inside the waistband (IWB) holsters are most assuredly NOT concealed in a vast majority of states.

The question is not how do you feel about it, but what is the law. If you don't know than say so. The question relating to NH law was legitimate and stands.

<sigh> Another one that will get lost in the woods real quick.

Grapeshot · Nov 6, 2010

nhsig220 said:
<sigh> Another one that will get lost in the woods real quick.

You speak from a vast well of personal experience?

Will someone chime in and confirm/deny that IWB holster carry has been determined to be concealed in NH. This deserves clarification.

LilRedMeanie · Nov 6, 2010

Grapeshot said:
You speak from a vast well of personal experience?

Will someone chime in and confirm/deny that IWB holster carry has been determined to be concealed in NH. This deserves clarification.

"What does concealed mean? Well, if you have a sidearm on your belt, and your vest is covering part of the sidearm, it could well be considered concealed, so you best have a license! If your firearm is in any way covered or concealed by your clothing, it may well be deemed to be ―concealed‖ and thus a license is arguably required."

Quoted from Penny Dean, consulting attorney for Gun Owners of New Hampshire, hunting instructor and NRA certified pistol instructor.

http://www.gonh.org/uploads/images/29/FAQ_3-9-10.pdf

sultan62 · Nov 6, 2010

LilRedMeanie said:
"What does concealed mean? Well, if you have a sidearm on your belt, and your vest is covering part of the sidearm, it could well be considered concealed, so you best have a license! If your firearm is in any way covered or concealed by your clothing, it may well be deemed to be ―concealed‖ and thus a license is arguably required."

Quoted from Penny Dean, consulting attorney for Gun Owners of New Hampshire, hunting instructor and NRA certified pistol instructor.

http://www.gonh.org/uploads/images/29/FAQ_3-9-10.pdf

Citing an opinion of an attorney is not citing a statute or case law. I have to date seen nothing to show that IWB carry of a visible firearm is legally concealed.

KBCraig · Nov 7, 2010

sultan62 said:
Citing an opinion of an attorney is not citing a statute or case law. I have to date seen nothing to show that IWB carry of a visible firearm is legally concealed.

To add to that, while I do highly respect Penny Dean and her experience, she is merely speculating.

In the case of an IWB holster, your clothing doesn't cover any portion of your firearm that isn't already covered by a holster.

LilRedMeanie · Nov 7, 2010

KBCraig said:
To add to that, while I do highly respect Penny Dean and her experience, she is merely speculating.

In the case of an IWB holster, your clothing doesn't cover any portion of your firearm that isn't already covered by a holster.

So does that mean an outside the waistband holster is concealed? Because MOST of the firearm is covered by the holster....

Grapeshot · Nov 7, 2010

KBCraig said:
To add to that, while I do highly respect Penny Dean and her experience, she is merely speculating.

In the case of an IWB holster, your clothing doesn't cover any portion of your firearm that isn't already covered by a holster.

LilRedMeanie said:
So does that mean an outside the waistband holster is concealed? Because MOST of the firearm is covered by the holster....

Nope it does not. KBCraig pointed that out.

Even a military style flap holster does not generally constitute concealed carry.

Gary599 · Nov 7, 2010

Walmart is private prop. The walmart greeter should have asked what biz they had there. Unless walmart made the complaint they had no biz being there.

KBCraig · Nov 7, 2010

KBCraig said:
To add to that, while I do highly respect Penny Dean and her experience, she is merely speculating.

In the case of an IWB holster, your clothing doesn't cover any portion of your firearm that isn't already covered by a holster.

LilRedMeanie said:
So does that mean an outside the waistband holster is concealed? Because MOST of the firearm is covered by the holster....

As Grapeshot already surmised, that was exactly my point. IWB and OWB are equally "concealed", and since it's not concealed if it's readily discernible to ordinary observation, it's a moot point.

Edit to add: I didn't mean any slight to Penny by saying she was speculating. As a legal advisor, part of her job is to speculate and warn clients about possible consequences, even if those consequences aren't legally justified. Other lawyers warn against any OC, even though it's perfectly legal, just to save clients the hassle that sometimes comes with exercising one's rights in a way that isn't common or popular.

xxx.jakk.xxx · Nov 9, 2010

IWB, OWB. Concealed or Open. It doesn't matter how he was carrying. As far as I understand it, in NH the Carrying of a Firearm doesn't provide RAS. so if he was simply waiting in line to pay for his purchase (as he stated), he should never have been asked for ID or a Permit.

Dreamer · Jan 2, 2011

In most states, "concealed" is defined as "not readily identifiable as a firearm".

Saying that an IWB holster is "concealed" because it obscured most of the gun (minus the grips and magazine) is just plain illogical. EVERY OWB retention holster obscures at least as much (if not more) of a firearm than an IWB holster.

By this logic, a military-style flap holster worn OWB would be "concealed" because it covers the ENTIRE firearm...

Here's how MOST states work out the "concealed vs. not concealed" thing:

Judge: "And Officer Fife, what did you cite the defendant with?"

Fife: "Carrying concealed without a permit."

Judge: "And how did you know he was carrying a concealed firearm? Did you find it during a pat-down, or did he uncover it in a threatening manner to another person or to you?"

Fife: "I saw the gun in a holster in his pants."

Judge: "and you were SURE this was a gun, by visual examination from a distance?"

Fife: "Yes."

Judge: "you were CERTAIN it was a gun and not a cell phone, or an insulin pump, or a camping knife, or a bunch of bananas stuffed in his waistband?"

Fife: "yes--it was obviously a gun--I could see it in plain view... (oops...)"

Judge: "Case dismissed..."

Grapeshot · Jan 2, 2011

Dreamer said:
In most states, "concealed" is defined as "not readily identifiable as a firearm".

Saying that an IWB holster is "concealed" because it obscured most of the gun (minus the grips and magazine) is just plain illogical. EVERY OWB retention holster obscures at least as much (if not more) of a firearm than an IWB holster.

Heard stories that a pistol clipped (sans holster) OWB would be concealed because one couldn't see the other side of the gun. Then there is the interpretation that a string covering that portion of the trigger guard from which the gun is suspended = concealed.

IMO that is just plain ludicrous.

There are indeed rulings that have been so decided in Mississippi.
Miss. Code § 97-37-1. E.g., Martin v. State, 93 Miss. 764, 47 So. 426 (1908); Powell v. State, 184 So.2d 866 (Miss. 1966), cert. denied, 87 S.Ct. 88, 385 U.S. 845, 17 L.Ed.2d 77 (1966); Reed v. State, 199 So.2d 803 (Miss. 1967), appeal dismissed, cert. denied, 88 S.Ct. 1113, 390 U.S. 413, 19 L.Ed.2d 1273 (1968).

Mike · Jan 2, 2011

Mrgrn said:
Had a small issue the other night in walmart. I was about done (2:30am) shopping and in line to check out and i looked up to see 3 police officers waiting for me. i have my pistol in my pant belt area i had no jacket. i have benn in this store a hundred times with no issue. The one officer asked to speak with me regarding the gun.

He asked me for a permit and i said to him i don't need one to openly carry. he said, "no really can i see your permit". I said i don't need one officer per state law. He insisted and said he "needed to make sure i was OK to have the gun" ? He aslo wanted to know who he was "dealing with". i did produce a permit and drivers license and after taking all my info and treating me like a criminal and making me feel like crap i was escorted out.

Awoke the next morning feeling violated so i headed to the station to speak with a officer. I waited a few minutes for sargeant chip on the shoulder to come. He informed me i was breaking the law and guns were now allowed in the station? I said the officer last night seemed to not know the law and i was not filing a complaint but just looking to make sure he knows the law and that i felt violated. chippy said somebody called and i made somebody in the store shopping uncomfy and i should conceal my gun. I said thanks but it was wrong to make a issue and make me feel uncomfy. He said too me " if you come in walmart and make somebody uncomfy we will come to you and make you feel uncomfy this is the circle?

I know this is what we deal with but these are the cops?

i can't believe i have to prove i have the right to carry and i was threatened to be harrassed if i carry openly

messed up

rant over LOL

The only way to really force the police department's hand on this is to refuse to carry the license or ID when on foot and walk away from them - if you are clearly seized and searched for this conduct, you will then have good facts for a civil rights lawsuit.

But for now, make a formal complaint against all the officers involved.

Thundar · Jan 2, 2011

Sterile open carry. A beautiful concept.

Sometimes even better:

Sterile open carry with pocket constitution outlining 2nd A.

JBT Show me zee papers.

You: Pull out the constitution opened to the 2A page.

When he asks what this is, show him the 5th and say nothing!

Claremont police are scary

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